Stanrick_Kubley
Active member
I like Vegas, but it is a bit obscure to me. I agree about Vegas's audio capabilities. They are unrivaled. That's why I was asking if Soundtrack Pro is like Vegas; I often mix audio in Vegas.
Any Real World Testing of Apple VS PC
- Thread starter Joe_Hicks
- Start date
Jubal28 said:
Jubal- I'm not a Vegas user, and have never even seen the interface, but... I read a rather startling article in EventDV magazine over the weekend. Read the article here: http://www.eventdv.net/Articles/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=9762
and take a look at this graph: http://www.eventdv.net/articles/readarticle.aspx?articleid=9786
Wow! According to this article, Vegas isn't exactly a Porsche when it comes to rendering, more like a VW. Is this info correct? or has something gone drastically awry in this testing. Just curious??
Joe
Joe_Hicks said:
I generally agree with the article -- though I have some issues with the chart, such as I'm able to determine what it shows. It doesn't really say what's being rendered -- is it a straight DV clip being rendered to MPEG-2 (no transitions, effects, etc)? The same one on each system? How long is it? What other variables?
I find Vegas's render from DV to MPEG-2 to be ridiculously fast, better than real-time. But there's not enough info here to determine what the factors may be which produced their results. I flatly reject that Edition and Premiere are that far ahead of Vegas . . .
EXCEPT that both Premiere Pro and Edition employ respective versions of background (pre-)rendering, which would be a cheat in this kind of a test -- because they'd have already done the heavy lifting before they got to the test. A fair test would be to disable the background rendering, start with a clip in the raw, and start the clock in all three at the exact same point.
thisiswells
Retired
On the (?? Pentium4) Matrox/PremeirePro system at my former employer, my job was to record
an hour of MiniDV footage in PremeirePro, add some bumpers to the front and end, convert to .m2v,
and burn to disc. That system was definitely quick--I'd say about the same as realtime, but not
really any faster. Compared to the DualG5 systems which were software only transcoding, the
Matrox system was several times quicker. I don't have exact numbers though as from memory,
this was nearly one year ago the last time I worked on that system. Hope this helps in someway.
brian wells
an hour of MiniDV footage in PremeirePro, add some bumpers to the front and end, convert to .m2v,
and burn to disc. That system was definitely quick--I'd say about the same as realtime, but not
really any faster. Compared to the DualG5 systems which were software only transcoding, the
Matrox system was several times quicker. I don't have exact numbers though as from memory,
this was nearly one year ago the last time I worked on that system. Hope this helps in someway.
brian wells
Aaron Koolen
Well-known member
I'm always surprised about the statement that "Vegas' audio abilities are unrivalled" cause it makes me wonder how crappy other programs must be. Vegas is my NLE and while you can do audio stuff in it, none of it seems particularly great to me. Effects, envelopes, blah blah - all stuff I expect in any program.
Also, Vegas might be compatibile with acid loops, but you can't edit as easily as you can in a loop program designed for that purpose - I'd hate to write music in Vegas.
I do love Vegas' format agnostic outlook on media - you can give it almost anything and it will convert it to what you're timeline is - great stuff. It's always been nice and snappy and stable, adn it was one of the first software based realtime systems out there - it was excellent.
The latest updates to Vegas seem pretty poor overall. The media manager, while having searching and tags, is DEAD slow and I'm running a P4 2.8Ghz machine, SATA drives, heaps of mem etc and I don't think it facilitates project oriented media easily (You have to use the project media manager which is awful)
With the announcement of FinalCut Studio - I am looking now at ditching Vegas and moving to a Mac. By the time you buy Vegas + DVD + Acid + some compositor, you're pretty close to FCStudio I think. And they integrate better and look a hell of a lot nicer in the interface department from the demos I've seen. I'll have to probably rent a FC system or something to see how it works, but I'm 95% ready to jump.
Also, FCP is more standard than Vegas if you're looking for outside work.
Aaron
Also, Vegas might be compatibile with acid loops, but you can't edit as easily as you can in a loop program designed for that purpose - I'd hate to write music in Vegas.
I do love Vegas' format agnostic outlook on media - you can give it almost anything and it will convert it to what you're timeline is - great stuff. It's always been nice and snappy and stable, adn it was one of the first software based realtime systems out there - it was excellent.
The latest updates to Vegas seem pretty poor overall. The media manager, while having searching and tags, is DEAD slow and I'm running a P4 2.8Ghz machine, SATA drives, heaps of mem etc and I don't think it facilitates project oriented media easily (You have to use the project media manager which is awful)
With the announcement of FinalCut Studio - I am looking now at ditching Vegas and moving to a Mac. By the time you buy Vegas + DVD + Acid + some compositor, you're pretty close to FCStudio I think. And they integrate better and look a hell of a lot nicer in the interface department from the demos I've seen. I'll have to probably rent a FC system or something to see how it works, but I'm 95% ready to jump.
Also, FCP is more standard than Vegas if you're looking for outside work.
Aaron
Stanrick_Kubley
Active member
Compared to Vegas, FCP and Premiere's audio tools are pathetic. Even without the comparison, they're less than what you would guess they would be.Aza said:
I do too. FCP is really, really getting wide use, which is excellent. One thing about Avid, though - it's the only system I've used that comes through ten times out of ten (like Shaft). Granted, you pay out the nose for that kind of stability.kai said:
Aaron Koolen
Well-known member
Really, FCP and Premiere are *that* bad huh? I'll have to check FCP out more closely then before I buy, although I'd imagine if FC Studio integrates with SoundTrack now, that you should be able to do some good stuff with it.
Aaron
Aaron
Stanrick_Kubley
Active member
yes, actually, if Soundtrack Pro is anything like Vegas, we will have a great solution, since you can open up tracks directly from FCP to Soundtrack Pro, work on them, and save them back to FCP. Really, most NLE's just aren't made for audio. Vegas is the exception.
thisiswells
Retired
I don't know anyone who does audio post in a video program--it's always done by exporting a low-res
.avi and individual tracks separately to a folder. Then the audio editor opens that stuff
into ProTools or Samplitude and works the magic using an audio editor. I have never used FCP
or PremeirePro for any audio sweetening besides adjusting volume, which I promptly put back
to its' original spot before sending out to audio post. Otherwise, I would get my head cut off.
Does anyone use the tools in FCP, PP, or Vegas for audio? Not to make anyone stick out like a
sore thumb, but I've just never heard of it done that way.
brian wells
.avi and individual tracks separately to a folder. Then the audio editor opens that stuff
into ProTools or Samplitude and works the magic using an audio editor. I have never used FCP
or PremeirePro for any audio sweetening besides adjusting volume, which I promptly put back
to its' original spot before sending out to audio post. Otherwise, I would get my head cut off.
Does anyone use the tools in FCP, PP, or Vegas for audio? Not to make anyone stick out like a
sore thumb, but I've just never heard of it done that way.
brian wells
Stanrick_Kubley
Active member
On my own little stuff, yes. I've edited in [whatever], exported a low-rez version, and mixed the audio in Vegas.
Aaron Koolen
Well-known member
Brian, I use Vegas for audio. I think I'm in the position where I can though. I do all my stuff for free, it's mainly news style and the couple of shorts I've done, I wasn't aiming for theatrical level stuff at all.
You see, I've always hated the idea of exporting audio into another program. I *want* a program that can do it all, or at least seemlessly integrate. I want to be able to go back and tweak the cuts at any point up until I finally master, and not lose all my audio tweaks etc, and if I lock the edit, then go to the audio step I might not be able to do that. Guess that's just they way it's done for efficiency and I should probably train myself to be more rigid, but for what I do I can get away with it.
Aaron
You see, I've always hated the idea of exporting audio into another program. I *want* a program that can do it all, or at least seemlessly integrate. I want to be able to go back and tweak the cuts at any point up until I finally master, and not lose all my audio tweaks etc, and if I lock the edit, then go to the audio step I might not be able to do that. Guess that's just they way it's done for efficiency and I should probably train myself to be more rigid, but for what I do I can get away with it.
Aaron
thisiswells
Retired
Not to be an arrogant snoot, but I guess I've kind of gotten used to the professionalism of the off-hollywood film industry. Every project I've worked on with a crew will always do audio post with a sound editor.. even if only an apprentice editor, it is still regarded a specialised trade and thus the duties of a specialist. But, I agree that if I were doing some stuff on my own, I would prefer to have as many tools available to me within my vid. editor to simply the process. Good points, everyone.
brian wells
brian wells
Well, for serious projects I *try* to use ProTools for audio editing. Not all the time, though. I don't find FCP is that bad for audio editing on my own stuff. Yes, FCP doesn't do Dolby 5.1, yet. Yes, it is kind of annoying to play with rubber band in the viewer window to fine-tune in 1/100 of a frame timecode. However, I still think FCP is good enough (well, at least for me I should say) for a find job done.
ArkhamFilms
Well-known member
FCP is perfectly fine for audio editing temp mixes, for which it's designed to do. For anything going full up or out to film/DVD distrobution, you'd most likely may want to invest in someone who's mastered the craft of sound editing/design.
As for real-world platform experience, which this thread's title asks for, and under 10k, I highly recommend FCP and OSX. Here are just a few reasons based on MY personal experience:
1) Stable and solid OS
2) Realtime out of the box
3) Codec/Frame rate independent
4) Film Match Back / Offline / Online
5) Fantastic After Effects integration, including being able to use most AE plugins, directly within FCP.
6) Jobs (I get a shitload of work because I can use this NLE)
7) Vast FCP community and user groups
8) Walter Murch
Do some research, find some projects you like and find out what they were cut with. Ask the film/videomakers what they think. Find out how well that program works with others, (Pro-Tools, AE, etc.) Research that NLE's user base and get a sense for its community. And most importantly, check the trades. Which NLE are jobs requiring?
-CJ
www.arkhamfilms.com
As for real-world platform experience, which this thread's title asks for, and under 10k, I highly recommend FCP and OSX. Here are just a few reasons based on MY personal experience:
1) Stable and solid OS
2) Realtime out of the box
3) Codec/Frame rate independent
4) Film Match Back / Offline / Online
5) Fantastic After Effects integration, including being able to use most AE plugins, directly within FCP.
6) Jobs (I get a shitload of work because I can use this NLE)
7) Vast FCP community and user groups
8) Walter Murch
Do some research, find some projects you like and find out what they were cut with. Ask the film/videomakers what they think. Find out how well that program works with others, (Pro-Tools, AE, etc.) Research that NLE's user base and get a sense for its community. And most importantly, check the trades. Which NLE are jobs requiring?
-CJ
www.arkhamfilms.com
thisiswells said:
Absolutely I use the audio tools in Vegas, especially the 5.1 surround tools.
I saw Soundtrack Pro at work at NAB last week... it was what I had always hoped Ppro with Audition was going to be.
You can take a FCP session and sent it to Soundtrack Pro, get your cut in a video window (or send to monitor), you get your edited audio laid out track for track, you can sweeten, add fx, music, etc. You cannot, though, send that refined audio back to FCP. So you just need to make sure that your cut is locked before you do audio work. Even if you have to tweak the cut, it's not that bad to go back and tweak the audio back into place.
I have always been a PC/Adobe user, but that will most likely change next month
You can take a FCP session and sent it to Soundtrack Pro, get your cut in a video window (or send to monitor), you get your edited audio laid out track for track, you can sweeten, add fx, music, etc. You cannot, though, send that refined audio back to FCP. So you just need to make sure that your cut is locked before you do audio work. Even if you have to tweak the cut, it's not that bad to go back and tweak the audio back into place.
I have always been a PC/Adobe user, but that will most likely change next month
ArkhamFilms
Well-known member
thisiswells said:
For Pro-Tools you'd export an OMF with a window burn. I work this way from FCP to guys from THX & Skywalker Sound flawlessly.
For corporate work / home movies, sure you can mix yourself in any NLE. For Broadcast & Film, you'd be insane not to hire someone who's spent their career mastering sound which is an art form in itself.
-CJ
www.arkhamfilms.com
thisiswells
Retired
cool. the group i work with is on samplitude, and i should have said that was the workflow they prefer. figured it would be the same for protools. looks like there is a better way in omf. thanks. of course the other things don't change like a sound guy will have excellent monitors (Meyer HD1 or HD2) and a room they are familiar with, even if it isn't an anechoic chamber, they at least would know the limitations and flaws of the room and know how to compensate. totally agree that having someone mix and master your audio in their environment, with their tools, and most importantly their ears. it is amazing to me the division of labor in the sound mixing world. a live venue sound mixer will tell you they are not studio recording mixers and wouldn't do very well in a studio because they're completely different things. a recording engineer will tell you that he doesn't mix very well. a studio mixer will tell you he rocks as a mixer, as long as he's given good tracks from the recording engineer. i know just little enough about this topic to be dangerous and recognise they are specialists and i respect that. one of the things michael (sound guy) always likes to use is a "fairchild compressor" which is supposed to be pretty nice and i know for certain i don't have one... so, power to the sound man!
brian wells
brian wells