Anti-Sugarcoating Challenge

Kegan

Kegan

Spam Assassin Mod
Well, I debated creating a thread like this for some time, but I think it's finally reached the point where I have to at least type out my thoughts.

I've noticed that we're getting a lot of new members and our older members are being encouraging - I like that, its a good sense of community. What I don't like on the other hand are excuses and excuses are what are being thrown around lately. We tend to see someone post footage of a plant or a cat, edited together into a quick montage and burst with excitement telling them what a good job they did and ask what settings they used, etc. Any negative comments and the OP will turn around and say, "hey, that's not fair - it was my first ever video/movie/music video, etc"

It's fine to be encouraging, but what happened to being realistic? I mean come on, a user posts a short film and no one takes the time of day to critique something that someone has put such hard work into, but if someone posts something they threw together in a couple hours, everyone's jumping all over it. Don't say footage is good if its not. Advise on ways to improve, but don't boost the OP's ego. How are we to ever properly learn from sugarcoated critiques? I understand that people get easily offended, but seriously...if you can't take constructive criticism, get out of this line of work.

We should be encouraging each other to work harder, achieve better; not settle for crappy results. It doesn't matter to me if a mod closes a thread, because of an argument or poor subject matter...just hopefully in the future when people start ACTUALLY expressing their thoughts on footage or a DIY project, that it isn't considered flaming and shut down.

My challenge to DVXusers from all over the world is to STOP sugarcoating your critiques and actually take the time to formulate a proper critique that can be of use for the OP. Don't bash them if their work is poor, but instead take the time to help guide them back onto the right track.

Will YOU take the anti-sugarcoating challenge?

-Kegan
 
I'm with you Kegan. I try to make any critiques as constructive as possible and point out anything I see wrong. I make a point to mention what I like, but to me the most important parts are what is wrong. There's a Dyson spot running right now where he talks about how they got excited everytime a prototype failed. Without failure you cant have success.
 
That's exactly what I'm talking about Loki!

jdajda: That's a great way to put it. Without failure, there wouldn't be any success. That should be the Anti-Sugarcoating Challenge's logline:)

Glad I'm not the only one thinking this way,

Kegan
 
Okay, here's the problem: Very, very few are at a fully professional level here (or, well, frankly, anywhere). MOST of what people post, kind of stinks on some level or other. If that's all they hear, they'll be quickly discouraged and frankly, we don't need a whole lot of negativity running around.

Take the example of a baby's first steps -- when babies start walking, they're really bad at it. Awful, in fact. Should we point that out to them? Or should we encourage them and keep working with them and then, some day about 14 years from now, they might be world-class gymnasts...

Nobody should tell someone that something is great if it isn't, unless it's very carefully qualified (such as: wow, jim, this is sooooo much better than anything I've seen you do before. You're really improving.)

I probably give the harshest critiques of anyone; I never sugarcoat anything. But I also won't do that to someone unless they ask specifically -- and if they ask, then that is de facto evidence that they want a full-fledged reality check.

This place is a filmmaker's incubator. It's for growing people. You gotta give 'em milk before you give 'em meat. Some people are ready for the meat, some aren't. And if you can't think of anything nice to say, perhaps you'd be better off not saying anything? It all depends on what level the filmer is at, and if that's not taken in context then you run the risk of doing far more harm than good by giving out raw bare critiques.
 
Barry_Green said:
Okay, here's the problem: Very, very few are at a fully professional level here (or, well, frankly, anywhere). MOST of what people post, kind of stinks on some level or other. If that's all they hear, they'll be quickly discouraged and frankly, we don't need a whole lot of negativity running around.

Take the example of a baby's first steps -- when babies start walking, they're really bad at it. Awful, in fact. Should we point that out to them? Or should we encourage them and keep working with them and then, some day about 14 years from now, they might be world-class gymnasts...

Nobody should tell someone that something is great if it isn't, unless it's very carefully qualified (such as: wow, jim, this is sooooo much better than anything I've seen you do before. You're really improving.)

I probably give the harshest critiques of anyone; I never sugarcoat anything. But I also won't do that to someone unless they ask specifically -- and if they ask, then that is de facto evidence that they want a full-fledged reality check.

This place is a filmmaker's incubator. It's for growing people. You gotta give 'em milk before you give 'em meat. Some people are ready for the meat, some aren't. And if you can't think of anything nice to say, perhaps you'd be better off not saying anything? It all depends on what level the filmer is at, and if that's not taken in context then you run the risk of doing far more harm than good by giving out raw bare critiques.
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That was so well said that I wanted to make sure people saw it twice.
:thumbsup:
 
Barry_Green said:
This place is a filmmaker's incubator. It's for growing people. You gotta give 'em milk before you give 'em meat. Some people are ready for the meat, some aren't. And if you can't think of anything nice to say, perhaps you'd be better off not saying anything? It all depends on what level the filmer is at, and if that's not taken in context then you run the risk of doing far more harm than good by giving out raw bare critiques.
Click to expand...

I disagree with this slightly.

If I take my time to watch someone's work and I really don't like it; I will say so. It's not a personal attack, it is my opinion. Which is interesting in regards to this forum.

If someone posts their work online and asks for feedback it's fair game. If they can't take the heat from their own work why are they putting it out there for everyone to scrutinize? I'm sure their mom and friends will give them more than enough positive feedback.

I don't think Kegan means he wants to hear people bashing someone's work when they don't like it.

But when something really clearly sucks and is just plain awful; I will say so. It always sucks hearing someone hates your work; but it also helps you grow and gives you a bit of a reality check.

It's a double edged sword on the net and with anonymity. I try to type what I'd say in real life. I am blunt in person, and online.

Adding sugar to **** doesn't make it any easier to swallow.
 
Like Barry said it all depends where the filmmaker is on their learning curve.
You're right - adding sugar to shi* doesn't make it any easier to swallow.
So why bother feeding shi* to people in the first place?

To go back to Barry's analogy - are you going to point out a babies flaw's when they do something for the first time?
Or are you going to be proud of them for making strides, and judge them within the context they're in?

This isn't about lying to people, or even sugarcoating (neither of which I would advocate).
It's about judging work honestly within it's context.
I will judge a first film from someone much differently that I would, say, Jack's newest short film.

And yes, I can hear it now - "an audience doesn't care how many films you've made, etc etc, the real world doesn't grade on a curve"
But that's the whole point of having places like this - it's a training ground, it's an online film school... it's not the real world.
 
I think it's all in who you say it. You can be honest...just know how to pick your euphemisms.
 
Good points Barry. (and Luis for reposting :)). I guess its that very fine line that requires some good judgement. I just get tired of seeing "that was great" (even though I've written myself a few times) without any reasoning. I've seen plenty of things that were great on this site, but they werent award winning either. I'd just like to see the reasons why people think something is great rather than generic applause.
 
Lots of posts and lots to catch up on. I understand Barry's perspective and I'm not only saying to critique well, but why are a lot of people's first "test shots" commended so highly? They're TEST SHOTS. That's similar to a baby getting up, taking half a step and falling down.

They almost took their step, but they didn't quite make it. Sure, you commend them for trying and encourage them to do better, but you also point out what made them fall in the first place. You don't just say, "Great job! Keep trying" and have them fall repeatedly. You do your best to ensure they take that first step and continue to take many more.

I also understand Luis' point of view in regards to judging within context. To better be able to critique, maybe when writing out their post, they can mention their level of experience or how much they've done in that specific genre. That might help us better write our critiques.

Also, not forgetting one of the aspects of my original post - shooting something of SUBSTANCE also helps. When I say substance, I'm not referring to a documentary about fighting AIDs in Africa or anything like that. I just mean something with a story! I'm guilty of this as well, but we need to stop seeing "that was great" all the time and start hearing some realistic point of views.

-Kegan
 
Excellent post. I would much rather view a DVXuser's actual thoughts than another YouTube link.

"Juding within context" is paramount. We're all over the place in our skillsets on this board.

In terms of the generic "that was great" post, sometimes I don't have time to write out a New York Times review, but nonetheless feel compelled to at least offer some feedback.
 
This thread sucks

































Just kidding. I agree with you to an extent. As you would likely agree, criticism should be constructive. It helps no-one when a response is a single line like "That sucks" or even "That's great". I think more and more people should clarify their comments as to what they didn't like or what they did like. That would help people grow far more than just getting just simple positive comments.
 
Thats the problem righ there - "that's great" is just as helpful as "that sucks". Granted the first is a tad more encouraging :) JDS's post on critiques from LoveFest outlined this very well as well how one should accept criticism. If it hasnt been done already, maybe that could be in User Films or HVX clips (or both) as a sticky?
 
Yeah, I agree - get JDS' thread stickied in TimeFest and any other relevant forums. We need some sort of structure and at the moment, we have none.

Deepfocus: I understand sometimes we just don't have the time to offer feedback, but still feel the need to post something. Maybe we should resist that urge and post when we have more time? I dunno, just something to think about.

-Kegan
 
Barry_Green said:
we don't need a whole lot of negativity running around.
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I dislike negativity as much as the next guy, but I think people are more likely to learn and grow if you're honest with them.

I think that honesty would encourage people to produce better material. Then we wouldn't have to be so negative. :laugh:
 
It bothers me when people post their work with the disclaimer that this is their "first" ever film or they're "just" 16 or things along that line. I realize that they're trying to provide a context for their work, but a lot of it just feels like they're trying to have it both ways. I think that a posted work should be judge on its own merit, and if the poster feels like explaining that they have limited resources etc. or whatever then they can do that after other people have commented.
 
Kegan Sant said:
Deepfocus: I understand sometimes we just don't have the time to offer feedback, but still feel the need to post something. Maybe we should resist that urge and post when we have more time? I dunno, just something to think about.

-Kegan
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OK, fair enough, but let's not overthink this. We're not altering the time-space continuum by telling someone they did a "great job" filming their dog run around the apartment with a redrock adapter.

At the end of the day, those with true talent will get noticed by the right people. (If they want to, that is) Our comments/critiques are just that....comments and critiques.
 
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