Another "what do I need to do?"

J

JimmyD

New member
I will be shooting a couple short films this summer. I expect 2 lavs and a boom-mounted shotgun will do me for most situations. But I also have a love for good ambient sound and may try (besides adding ambience in post) a fourth stereo mic?
But my main concern is recording these channels with as much fidelity as possible. I do not want to use my camera's hdv-mpeg1 audio recording.
My 1st question: should I go with a 3-input mixer and a 2-channel recorder, or a 4 channel recorder? How does the edirol r-4 stack up to the 2-channel recorders like fostex fr-2 or the tascam hd-p2?
2nd question: Does a mixer add to audio quality such that a 2-channel recorder like the marantz pmd-series (cheap) will sound better with the sd 302 mixer than a fostex/tascam recording the mics directly or with a cheap mixer?
3rd - In the case of 3 channels mixed to 2 - is it about a stereo mix, or 2 separate channels? Do I mix 2 lavs on 1 channel, and shotgun to the 2nd, or try for some sort of stereo mix output to the recorder?
I have read it's best to record the same signal on 1 channel, and then quieter on a 2nd channel in case high volumes cause distortion. So would it be better to mix 3 mics to 1 channel and then record it at a lower level on 2 channel?
Simple answer could be - I'm hopelessly lost and need to spend a couple days with an experienced sound guy. Luckily, Vancouver's full of them if that's so. If I can spare them, and lean on you guys instead, I hope learn enough (with practice) to be the sound guy in a pinch.
 
go with the sound guy in your neighborhood , there is no better way then see it with your eyes and not get secend hand information( from me:-) or others , which might be not suitable to your kind of movie .what kind of movie is it ?what locations do you have?how many people involved in dialog? what is your kind of shooting ( hand held , static , steady involved ) , do you have written dialog or it it improvize or half /half , lighting conditions and locations problems - we dont know allot so we only can guess , so i guess :-)
usually 2 channel recorder will be enough( that s good for 90% on every stuff i did in my life , even now i have 4 track i, mix for 2 and keep 2 for iso which been opened only if i f.u.ck.ed up , the quality of the recorder is much depends on your budget , the f-2 or 702 t is better solution then others since you will be able run freely with tc if your cameras equip with free run tc.
if you run rec run tc on your cameras you will have to slate any way so it really doesnt matter as long the recorder have clean line level inputs so tascam or even micro track will be good with proper gain structure setting. ( you wont need slate every take with free run tc and would be able synchronize automatically on nle hudge time savings on set and post ).

about mixers , 3 channel is good , but certainly look for 4 channels , even used . you might find you in situation you must have to use more then 3 microphones you have now ,it happens and it happens allot .
mix the wireless to one channel if the boom mike really give you extra ( that depends on the framing ) , if not ,separate them and record them separately and dont use the boom at all , dont forget to record ambient sound and add it in the post .
the 1 channel lower then other is mostly suitable for on camera recording where you cant ride the levels in time . in normal mixing work, forget about it. with good mixer and boom operator you wont be in dangerous to distort( sh.it happens :-)) but it always better then mixing 3 mics to one track and not separate them , more freedom in post to fix the problems if one of the microphones is killing the others .

the tascam is cripple tc recorder - you will need external tc feed from tc generator since your cameras dont have tc out you will need ext tc generator for free run work
dont know allot about edirol , but it doesnt look very friendly for outside /film work . they are coming with tc version in fall what dont seems change the privius sentence :-)

stereo mic - keep it last in the chain , if you have the money after your buy all you other toys you might think about , good mics cost quit allot , so maybe after investigation about the locations rent it for the unique sound locations only , other wise run mono ambient and add after stereo effects if it necessary .or take a trip for a day after shooting and record the locations you was shooting on with stereo microphone.
buy another hyper for interior shots , the shot guns really dont work to well in these situation - of course it depends on inside reverb - if there is a good acoustic with no reverb you definitely may work with .but even if it does ,2nd mic is always nice helper on wide and tight shots as plant or secend boom when you have trouble to go fast from side to side
. dont buy cheap stuff which wouldn't give you flexibility or good result , i know allot who waisted or loosed money being cheap in first place - good mixer is must - of course you can pick up used good one as well .
my 2 shekels
 
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There is a review of the R-4 in the past couple of months in DV magazine that was not overwhelmingly favorable. I use the Tascam, and while it does not have an output for internally generated TC, that has not been a problem for me, as I use my Denecke slate for TC generation.

Oleg handled the other questions very well, but I tend to agree with his first statement - hire someone that knows what they're doing.

Phil
 
tascam + slate =$$$$ the better recorder with tc ( new )
sorry but lately i see tc slates in movies only , something that really doent come out of my bag except pb gigs or 100 take commercials with non tc film cameras when we just show the slate to the camera , all others- simple clap ones in the scene or couple of hours . l
 
Oleg, This is true, except I picked up my TC slate used, so I'm still under the cost of any other TC recorders. And, those new TC slates that are slowly shipping out of the UK look very promising too.

I always just throw the TC slate in to give post another way to line up the files (especially in situations where I'm not able to keep an accurate log - just match the TC on the slate to the TC in the file). Synch is still manual, but at least the right files are identified.

And, on the low budget stuff I'm usually working on, it's the first time they've seen a TC slate...so there is a wow factor that weighs in, even if it is completely useless. ;-)

Phil
 
the wow factor is another job in the futur !!@!!!!!
as long they are happy from the lines :-)
 
I was all about TC slate at one point. But after the first time the 2nd AC dropped it (and they do a lot without telling you) and it needed to be sent out for repairs I got over it quick. If we are not shooting film or they do not request it, no TC slate.

In the course of a shoot I do not have control of my wireless TX, comteks, or TC slate. Guess which 3 things have to be serviced more then anything else.

Cheers
 
thanks

thanks

for all the input. I'm not worried about TC just yet, and will probably use a regular slate and sync audio with that. (my pain, I'm doing the rough editing)
I will look for a 4-channel mixer and 2-channel recorder.
I will call Rod (he doesn't know it yet) to coach me.
 
I can absolutely relate to that. On last weekend's project, it was the "ad" that was handling the slate, and every time I watched her try to clap just holding the sticks I held my breath. After the second time, I showed her (again) how much easier it is to clap if she holds it from the bottom.

Phil
 
Forgot I was gonna post on the original question....

If you are considering handling your own sound then go hang on a set with the sound dept and learn the in's and out's of what they do and why. Rent some gear and shoot some practice scenes yourself. Then edit them to a polished finished.

Better to learn thru your mistakes during practice then on game day. :thumbsup:
 
JimmyD said:
for all the input. I'm not worried about TC just yet, and will probably use a regular slate and sync audio with that. (my pain, I'm doing the rough editing)
I will look for a 4-channel mixer and 2-channel recorder.
I will call Rod (he doesn't know it yet) to coach me.
Click to expand...
why pain , what camera do you use?
 
wabbit said:
Forgot I was gonna post on the original question....

If you are considering handling your own sound then go hang on a set with the sound dept and learn the in's and out's of what they do and why. Rent some gear and shoot some practice scenes yourself. Then edit them to a polished finished.

Better to learn thru your mistakes during practice then on game day. :thumbsup:
Click to expand...
100% behind you
 
using the jvc hd100u.
I honestly don't know if it'll be a pain, dropping the two audio tracks into the FC timeline and syncing up the clap sounds. I'll use the camera mic as a reference point, then throw out that audio channel.
shooting outdoors mostly, 2 senn g2's and 416. I'm debating the rycote #4 system vs. just a softie & furry windjammer - any thoughts on how much better the blimp is? Either way, I'll have an elastic, suspended mount.
I'm pretty stoked to learn about sound as I spend a lot of time thinking about sound design in the abstract. A guy at "location sound" in Vancouver should be showing me some gear and techniques tomorrow.
I'm starting to think seriously about a good mixer and more budget recorder like the pmd660 as i could avoid the crappy preamps with the line in.
On a sadder note, a friend just returned my re-mastered copy of "exile on main street" with a scratch on it. Rip This Joint is hooped ;(
 
Vancouver has a ton of shoots going on all the time. Try to get on a set to see the theory you learn at Location Sound put into real world practice.

Make sure to pick up this book. http://www.dplay.com/book/pgs2e/index.html

It's the closest thing to an encylopedia of location sound knowledge.

Cheers
 
That book was so over my head. I read it and got a lot of it, but I'm a visual
person so reading about frequencies was hard.

Charli
 
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