Another Tascam HD-P2 Time Code thead!

N

naavt

Well-known member
Hi all,
I know that this was already extensively debated, but since I've bought one of those last Friday, I just want to make sure that Time of Day, Free-run TC doesn't work like we all (Tascam users), would like it to work!

I've read the manual again and again and one thing needs to be said: Tascam DOES GENERATE TC! It's clearly stated in the users manual page 21:

"Internal - The audio clock is crystal-controlled and generated by the HD-P2. Use this only if the HD-P2 is to be the audio clock master in your system, with its S/PDIF digital audio output used to synchronize other audio gear"

So if any doubts remained about HD-P2s TC generating capabilities, I think the above lines will end them once and for all, but the million dollar question remains...

If it is capable of generate TC, and if it slaves another gear (even if the only route is through it's digital output), how come I can't make it generate Free-Run TC???:angry::angry::cry::cry:
 
If I remember correct the hdp-2 stamp the file with internal clock what in some way could work as free run tc , but you cant output this clock tru the digital out .
you will need put your camera in free run , slate manually then pray that the drift between 2 devices will be minimum -)

the simple way is to borrow or buy denecky tc generator ( or ambient) and run it as master to your recorder and you camera if it has tc in .
if not go to audio channel instead and import it on avid as aclip tc .
if you working withp-2 cards - you "f.u.ckeddd " as it impossible to my knowledge , if you working with fcp and not p-2 you will need 3 rd party software (from galery if i remeber correct) which cost about grand to do what avid does for free .
by the way i have an hhb dat which could be tc generator and give you additional 2 channel recording for very cheap :-)
 
naavt said:
Hi all,
I know that this was already extensively debated, but since I've bought one of those last Friday, I just want to make sure that Time of Day, Free-run TC doesn't work like we all (Tascam users), would like it to work!

I've read the manual again and again and one thing needs to be said: Tascam DOES GENERATE TC! It's clearly stated in the users manual page 21:

"Internal - The audio clock is crystal-controlled and generated by the HD-P2. Use this only if the HD-P2 is to be the audio clock master in your system, with its S/PDIF digital audio output used to synchronize other audio gear"

So if any doubts remained about HD-P2s TC generating capabilities, I think the above lines will end them once and for all, but the million dollar question remains...

If it is capable of generate TC, and if it slaves another gear (even if the only route is through it's digital output), how come I can't make it generate Free-Run TC???:angry::angry::cry::cry:
Click to expand...

Audio Clock is NOT time code clock. Audio Clock refers to the sample rate clock, a whole different ballgame, and is the wordclock that controls the sampling of the audio waveform. If one is running multiple digital devices, say connecting a digital mixer to the Tascam's digital inputs, the sample clocks of all of them must be synchronized with each other to prevent snats and pops, with one device in the setup serving as the clock master and all other devices' sample clocks slaved to it. What the manual is saying is the HD-P2 is able to serve as the sample master when it feeds other digital devices through its S/PDIF output. In the paragraph before the one you quoted, the manual states that the setting for the audio clock source is included on the timecode menu for convenience but it is not setting the source for the timecode itself. The Tascam's timecode capabilities are those of a TC READER, reading and syncing to externally provided timecode but it does not act as a TC generator itself. You can set the Freewheel to "Infinite" and the TC register will keep counting without an external TC source being connected, you still need to connect to some external TC source to kick-start the process. This is so you can run untethered from the camera after the camera's TC output starts the clock running and sets it and in this mode you can start and stop recording while the TC clock keeps on running. his design reflects common video production practice where the video camera is the timecode master and the audio recorder follows it. In film production the opposite is usually true, with the audio recorder serving as the TC master and the smart slates or TC capable film cameras follow it.

As Oleg suggests, if your camera doesn't output TC to feed to the recorder you'll need to get an external generator to serve as the master. Horita makes some in the sub-$500 range that might be worth looking into.
 
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Hi Oleg,

The user manual states that you really can slave another gear through HD-P2s digital out, but I'm not going to even bother with it.

All I want is a way to simply find that audio clip which belongs to that video clip in Post, so I were thinking to synch both camera and sound recorder with the 3-2-1 Go! method and synch the audio using both waveforms (camera and Tascam's) in FCP.

But for that, I just need the Tascam to print Free-run TC on the audio clips, and no matter the TC settings I apply on it, the Tascam continues to stop TC every time I hit the stop button when it should be running even when I'm not recording!!!
 
clock syncronization have nothing with tc syncronization
the rsorder doesnt output tc .

i need to check the manual to see why you cant get internal clock stamp
 
Hi Oleg and thank you in advance for your concerns towards this matter.

Forgive my English, but by clock stamp you mean that the Tascam audio files are recorded with the TC that it's showing on its monitor?

If clock stamp stands for that, I can tell you that it's doing it. I import the audio files to FCP and it shows the TC that Tascam was showing once recording.

The thing is that I can only manage to put the Tascam stamping Rec TC so far, when I need it to stamp Free-run TC on the audio files.
 
naavt said:
Hi Oleg and thank you in advance for your concerns towards this matter.

Forgive my English, but by clock stamp you mean that the Tascam audio files are recorded with the TC that it's showing on its monitor?

If clock stamp stands for that, I can tell you that it's doing it. I import the audio files to FCP and it shows the TC that Tascam was showing once recording.

The thing is that I can only manage to put the Tascam stamping Rec TC so far, when I need it to stamp Free-run TC on the audio files.
Click to expand...

See my message above. The Tascam doesn't support Free Run TC except when it has been jammed from an external timecode source. With the Freewheel setting on "infinite" you can connect an external clock and it will set itself to the external clock's time. You can then disconnect the external source and it will continue on its own - see page 22 of the manual, the paragraphs entitled "Freewheel" and "Jam-Sync" for more details. But you must have an external TC source to start the process. Go to the Tascam website and read the product descriptions - it always refers to synching to timecode input, not generating timecode itself.
 
Hi Steve,

Sorry but I didn't noticed your first reply. Your answer truly helped. Thank you so much.

If it's not off topic, I then just want your feedback regarding Ext TC generators. A digital slate is way too much for my wallet right now, so the Horita's you have mentioned, I've been on their site just now and they have one really cheap without crystal display, and one with crystal display. Are those the only differences between them? If yes, does the crystal display worths about 200 USD more?

Do you have any feedback about Fisher Robotics TimeTool L? It seems a cheap alternative but it hasn't 24p capability

Thanks once again
 
naavt said:
Hi Steve,

Sorry but I didn't noticed your first reply. Your answer truly helped. Thank you so much.

If it's not off topic, I then just want your feedback regarding Ext TC generators. A digital slate is way too much for my wallet right now, so the Horita's you have mentioned, I've been on their site just now and they have one really cheap without crystal display, and one with crystal display. Are those the only differences between them? If yes, does the crystal display worths about 200 USD more?

Do you have any feedback about Fisher Robotics TimeTool L? It seems a cheap alternative but it hasn't 24p capability

Thanks once again
Click to expand...

What are you really trying to do here, what end result and workflow are you hoping to achieve? If you don't have some way to get the same timecode to both the camera and the audio recorder, spending money on external clocks to get the recorder's timecode to the equivalent of Free Run doesn't accomplish anything as a far as synching in post. Having the camera on Time of Day and the recorder also on Time of Day only will help if you can set both clocks to be within 1/30 of a second to each other, impossible to do manually. Unless you get the camera and recorder talking to each other so you can jam code from the recorder to the camera or vice versa, or can get both of them driven off of a common TC clock, or use a smart slate to timestamp the picture visually, free-run code on the recorder is pointless except for logging takes.

If you really feel you'll eventually need an audio recorder that's fully capable of actiung as a timecode master source, I'd suggest taking the Tascam back while you can still get your money back and getting an SD702T, Fostex FR-2, or Edirol R04 Pro. By the time you get done adding external generators etc you're going to spent almost as much money. But unless you either have a camera with external TC input/output or a smart slate, or send it to t he camera as an audio track and use editing software that can recognize the audio track it as an auxilliary timeline (Avid), it really won't do anything for you anyway. And the Tascam already has a far bigger advantage than free-run timecode when it comes to keeping longer takes in synch - the ability to slave its audio sample clock of an external composite video.
 
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I'm just trying to easily find the audio that corresponds to a certain video file. If both camera and sound were recording Time of Day, even if it they were a second or two apart I know that the sound file recorded at 03:21:45:17 belongs to a video file recorded one or two seconds apart from that value. I can then synch them using both waveforms, the one from the camera and the one from the Tascam.

I mostly do documentary work. No assistant to log the files, no opportunity to slate the takes, and a XH-A1, so no TC in/out. But it is a pain to find the sound files of a whole day work! Hours and hours spent on that! Just to find that piece of audio that corresponds to that image! That's why I bought the Tascam.

But you said two things that intrigued me.
1st - The audio channel. Can the Horita feed an audio channel with TC?
2nd - What to you mean with the advantage of slave the audio sample clock of an external composite video?
 
naavt,

You don't need timecode at all for what you are talking about. The Tascam is file based, those files will be time stamped when they are created. So if your time and date is set correctly on the tascam just look at the creation time on the files in the finder. You can use a renaming app to copy the creation time into the file name if you need to keep it from changing if you modify the file.
 
naavt said:
I'm just trying to easily find the audio that corresponds to a certain video file. If both camera and sound were recording Time of Day, even if it they were a second or two apart I know that the sound file recorded at 03:21:45:17 belongs to a video file recorded one or two seconds apart from that value. I can then synch them using both waveforms, the one from the camera and the one from the Tascam.

I mostly do documentary work. No assistant to log the files, no opportunity to slate the takes, and a XH-A1, so no TC in/out. But it is a pain to find the sound files of a whole day work! Hours and hours spent on that! Just to find that piece of audio that corresponds to that image! That's why I bought the Tascam.

But you said two things that intrigued me.
1st - The audio channel. Can the Horita feed an audio channel with TC?
2nd - What to you mean with the advantage of slave the audio sample clock of an external composite video?
Click to expand...

Q1: It should be able to. LTC is an audio signal similar to the old acoustic modems. Feed the TC out to an audio input.

Q2: One of the problems with double-system sound is that with longer takes the sound can drift out of sync with the video over the duration of the take. It starts in sync but is out by the end. This is due to the sample clocks in the camera and the audio recorder running at slightly diferent rates so when the resulting files are played back on the same device they are slightly different lengths. The solution is slave the audio recorder's clock to the video blackburst, either via a sync I/O on the camera (which your's doesn't have) or via the blackburst sync pulse that's embedded in the composite video output (which yours does).

I'm with Noiz here ... you do not need timecode for what you're talking about. The file's timestamp will be more than adequate for your purposes. Also the file names themselves "Take 1" "Take 2" correspond to your video takes in the camera.

I'm also concerned just why you're going to double system recording in the first place. I can't imagine trying that without having a sound person along with you to handle everything involved. If you're a one-man band you're going to be busier than a one-armed paper-hanger and if you don't have enough arms to handle slates, logs, etc you're not going to have enough hands to handle a stand-alone audio recorder either. Without slates, double system will buy you endless headaches in post as you try to establish sync by eyeballing it.

Your camera has decent audio if you feed it right. I'd focus on good mics and a field mixer for recording in-camera long before I'd think of going double system. Just going double system by itself is very unlikely to give you any quality advantages, and I think because of the added complexity you'll probably end up with worse results, not better.
 
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Yes you're both right. Probably the time stamping alone will help on this issue and I'll going to try it on my next work and see if it's a good way to do the job.

I probably did explained me wrong because I have one person to deal with audio and it's my wife. It's not her area of expertee (she's a Screenwriter), but she helps me a lot.

Feed the camera audio with a mixer in front was one of my first choices, but soon we have realized that it would be a mess in terms of mobility. I can give you an example:

My last documentary focuses on a well known kitchen in Lisbon, the one that belongs to a charity house and it's named "Kitchen of the poor". They make food for the indigents.
We have filmed about 2 weeks on location, and everyday we met situations that made me point, move and shoot some action that was away from an important conversation, like the indigents line to enter the kitchen's hall and the kitchen workers discussing personal problems.
If my wife and me were linked, one of us had been lost something. Recording separately, I then can decide if I use the "Off" audio in one section of the video that weren't related in the first place.

But I'm going to adopt your suggestions about file stamping and see if it works for me. If I decide later that I need a minimal drift between video and audio, I might consider Horita as you have suggested.
 
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naavt said:
...
But I'm going to adopt your suggestions about file stamping and see if it works for me. If I decide later that I need a minimal drift between video and audio, I might consider Horita as you have suggested.
Click to expand...

Timecode won't help any drift issues anyway. All TC really does is provide a tool for aligning takes similar to what a slate does and has no effect on "drift" whatsoever. To prevent drift the camera and the recorder's sample clocks must reference a common timebase. Forget the Horita - it won't do that for you.
 
naavt,

I hadn't noticed you were in Portugal. I was there traveling around and recording a few years ago, beautiful country, great food. You will get a smile out of our plan to go to a quiet small town for new years instead of hanging out in Lisbon. So I picked Nazare...

Cheers
SK

Oh and as Steve said the TC won't do you any good with drift. Plus like the creation date the TC in the file is not continuous but a stamp that tells when the file was started. When you said "point the camera" I assume you meant you moved to a different location. Tethering audio to the camera wouldn't hinder you aiming anywhere you want, but it would limit your traveling distance with out dragging audio along. If your doing double system I would also recommend you use the on camera mic to pick up a guide track for syncing. It will make the syncing a lot better. And you don't really want to be doing the syncing in a NLE, the ability to move audio in fine increments is either impossible or difficult depending on the app.
 
Steve House said:
Timecode won't help any drift issues anyway. All TC really does is provide a tool for aligning takes similar to what a slate does and has no effect on "drift" whatsoever. To prevent drift the camera and the recorder's sample clocks must reference a common timebase. Forget the Horita - it won't do that for you.
Click to expand...
not exactly , if the tascam drift is less then the camera and its clock stable you will find that horrita would do the job by jamming the tascam and being xternal tc generator for the camera , at least that what we do on films . we take our recorder and jam external tc generator or jamming they both with generator and place the generator on camera .
 
To prevent drift the camera and the recorder's sample clocks must reference a common timebase.
Click to expand...
Hi Steve,

I was under the impression that preventing drift was a simpler task, done easily by putting both video and audio running at say, 25fps non-drop frame (in my case since I'm in Europe). Both camera and sound recorder clocks are crystal controlled so I assume that if they drift apart it will only happen after many hours of shooting. Am I wrong?

beautiful country, great food. You will get a smile out of our plan to go to a quiet small town for new years instead of hanging out in Lisbon. So I picked Nazare...
Click to expand...
Hi Noiz2,

Yes, beautiful country and great food but many hassles with a majority of stupid people that only cares for football, does nothing to improve economy and difficult others peoples lives just as an entertainment!

You don't know how it's like to be Portuguese and make movies!!! You have to fill 100 pages just to ask permission to bring the camera with you. Ok, I'm exaggerating. But just to make a statement, you have to ask for city halls permission if you want to put a tripod on a street!!! And that is not a joke!

Anyway... Every country has is own problems.

About TC, yes your right (sorry my English). I meant move to another location and yes, I'm using a Beyerdynamic shotgun on my XH-A1. And thank you for your suggestions about my sound problems :)
 
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wrong , the frame rate have nothing with accuracy of the internal Cristal.
you may find 2 devices which running in same rate would b e 10 frames apart after one hour as one drift left and the second drift right ( fast or slow not accurate internal clock)
good exampe is cina alta 900 which drift about 4-5 frames per hour relevantly to my 788:-)
 
naavt said:
Hi Steve,

I was under the impression that preventing drift was a simpler task, done easily by putting both video and audio running at say, 25fps non-drop frame (in my case since I'm in Europe). Both camera and sound recorder clocks are crystal controlled so I assume that if they drift apart it will only happen after many hours of shooting. Am I wrong?

...
Click to expand...

Unfortunately you are. It dpends on many variables so it's impossible to say just long you can go before drift becomes a problem. I've heard of problems in shots as short as 10 minutes and of people able to go an hour or more without issues. It can even vary depending on the temperature. If you're shooting for fun, maybe not a worry. Buit if you're working professionally, the only safe course is to nip it in the bud and do the job properly from the start - I wouldn't want to stake my career on luck.
 
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