All Adobe 24p DVD possible?

S

Steve Ogden

Well-known member
Hi,

Just got the Adobe video collection upgrade, and am frustrated trying to make a 24p DVD in Encore. The Premier Pro handles the 23.976 great - but I've run into a wall trying to do anything with it in Encore.

In Premier, the 23.976 must be exported as mpeg, but then Encore transcodes it (again!) as soon as it's imported. Hopefully, I'm just missing something obvious (other than Vegas!!).

Has anyone made it work yet - or did I waste my money on the upgrade?
 
Re: All Adobe 24p DVD possible?

Now, I'm more confused than ever about 24p dvds.

I thought a 24p dvd is 24 progressive-scan frames per second(or 23.976). Here's what Adobe replied over on the Encore forum:

Yes, all versions of Encore can make a 24p DVD.

Either import a 24p MPEG-2 file or AVI- Encore will transcode 24p AVI files on import to 29.97 fps with the progressive flag set.
Click to expand...

Can a 24p dvd have a 29.97 fps timeline? What am I missing?
 
Re: All Adobe 24p DVD possible?

I too started to get worried. The Encore manual says something like Adobe said, but I think it might be incomplete or confused.

Here's what I did. I used the Adobe Media Encoder and started with one of the presets, but changed the video output to 23.976 progressive.

Now, when I imported that file into Encore is where I started to get confused. In the project window, the video showed up as 29.97 fps. I thought I had made a mistake, exported again carefully checking my settings and one again, Encore said 29.97.

I decided to burn my disc anyway. It burned without transcoding my video.

You might want to try this next part and see if you see what I see. I put the disc in my settop DVD player and navigated to a scene where there was fast movement that would usually show terrible 60i interlacing artifacts. I paused and used the "step" button on my remote to move through my video one frame at a time, and I saw absolutely no interlacing artifacts.

What's more, I started watching the time on my settop player. It doesn't have a frame readout, but I watched the second readout and everytime I pressed the step button 24 times the second count advanced by one.

So I'm not sure why 1) The manual says you must transcode, and 2) the project windows shows my 23.976 video as 29.97. But I did succeed in burning a 24p disc without transcoding.
 
Re: All Adobe 24p DVD possible?

When you export a 23.976 mpeg2 from Premiere, you are actually exporting it at 29.976fps, but with flags that tell it to skip every "x" frame. Thus you are only seeing the 24 Progressive scan frames per second, but recorded to disc there are actually 29.976 fps. Visually there is no difference between a true 24p dvd and a flagged 24p dvd, however, if you are trying to fit as much data on the dvd as possible, that is where you want the true 24p dvd. Hope that makes sense.
 
Re: All Adobe 24p DVD possible?

Kevin, same thing here. But when I imported into Encore, it transcoded again. And the playback on my monitor showed really bad interlacing/tearing. Footage was shot 24p normal.

Scharky - made perfect sense. Thanks. Fitting all that data onto a disk is why I want a true 24p
 
Re: All Adobe 24p DVD possible?

The new version of Dvd Architect will allow you to make a true 24P DVD. I don't know if you can get DVD architect without Vegas, but it's a really good deal together.
 
Re: All Adobe 24p DVD possible?

Okay, I did some more investigation--

scharky, what is happening is actually the opposite of what you are saying. The MPEG file really only has 24 pictures every second. Some of these pictures are marked with two MPEG flags ('top field first' and 'repeat first field') so that the *DVD Player* can repeat some fields, essentailly doing a 3:2 pulldown on the 24 frame progressive frames in the file.

This is not conjecture -- I have been through the file with an MPEG analysis program and can see the flags and have counted the pictures and it works out exactly.

So while DVD Architect and Vegas do a fine job I'm sure, there's no need for us Premiere Pro users to switch.

Steve, no Encore didn't transcode, so it might be a difference in our settings. I assume you are using the Adobe Media Encoder. I don't have my exact settings with me here, but I can post them tonight. Can you look up what settings you were using? Was it a specific preset, or did you do something custom. (I ended up doing a custom transcode).
 
Re: All Adobe 24p DVD possible?

An additional note of clarification:

The MPEG output is definitely 23.976 fps progressive. And if you've got a progressive scan DVD player connected to a progressive display, that's how it will show.

But most of us have NTSC TVs. Think of the 'Top Field First' and 'Repeat First Field' flags as a set of instructions telling the DVD Player how to display the progressive content on an interlaced TV.

Why does the file show up in Encore as 29.97, and why is it not transcoded? My guess is that the flags I mentioned make the stream legal for 29.97. It is therefore *both* a 24p and 60i stream, without wasting extra space by physically storing the pulldown frames.
 
Re: All Adobe 24p DVD possible?

Kevin,

What great news!! I was beginning to think I'd have to scrap my adobe learning curve to get a true 24p dvd.

I did have to modify a pre-set to get Encore to recognize it, and after reading your comments, I've certainly screwed up my transcode settings. Encore re-transcodes everytime I import it. Here are my settings:

Created the project in Premier with the 'Panasonic 24P Widescreen 48kHz' project preset

Then, in Adobe Media Encoder, I modified one of the existing presets as follows (frame width, frame height, frame rate & aspect ratio). Probably modified the wrong preset.

Video Summary:
Codec: MainConcept MPEG Video
Quality: 5.0 (high quality)
TV Standard: NTSC
Frame Rate [fps]: 23.976
Pulldown: None
Field Order: None (Progressive)
Aspect Ratio: 16:9
Profile: Main Profile
Level: High 1440 Level
Frame Width [pixels]: 720
Frame Height [pixels]: 480
Bitrate Encoding: VBR, 2 Pass
Minimum Bitrate [Mbps]: 2.4923 (low quality)
Target Bitrate [Mbps]: 28.9460 (medium quality)
Maximum Bitrate [Mbps]: 44.4730 (high quality)

Which preset did you modify?
 
Re: All Adobe 24p DVD possible?

Kevin is right. I was doing some testing on my own last night, and I saw the error of my ways. So when encoding a 24p dvd you do need to select 23.976fps with 2+3 pulldown. It sounds wierd, but it works right, there really are only 24frames in the file, not 30.
 
Re: All Adobe 24p DVD possible?

Steve,
I have to wait till tonight to post my exact settings, but unless I'm reading it wrong, those bitrates of yours look really high, outside of the DVD spec. That would be onething that would case Encore to retranscode the files. Try something like Minimum 2.0, Avg 5.0, and Max 7.0.
 
Re: All Adobe 24p DVD possible?

OK, here are my Encoder settings as promised.

I created my project with the Panasonic 24p Standard 48 kHz template. Captured my video within Premiere.

Format: MPEG2-DVD
Preset: (Not that it matters, but I started with the SurCode Dolby preset -- "NTSC DV 4x3 High Quality 7 Mb VBR 2Pass SurCode for Dolby." When I realiized the Dolby Encoder was only a 5.1 encoder, and only a trial, I went custom by switching my audio to PCM, but kept most of the video Settings)
Quality:5.0
Standard: NTSC
Frame Rate: 23.976
Field Order: None (Progressive)
Aspect Ratio: 4:3
Bitrate Encoding: VBR, 2Pass
Min Bitrate: 1.5000
Target Bitrate: 4.5000
Max: 6.5000
M Frames: 3
N Frames: 15

And That's it. Steve, looking at your settings I see you have options for Profile and Level, which seem to indicate you had selected a format like MPEG2 rather than MPEG2-DVD, so your parameters were not as constrained.

Let me know if switching gets rid of the transcode problem in Encore.
 
Re: All Adobe 24p DVD possible?

Thanks Kevin -

I'm on the road right now & won't be able to check out the new settings till later in the week. I'll let you know as soon as results are available.
 
Re: All Adobe 24p DVD possible?

Kevin,

Well, I'm making progress. Changed the Media Encoder settings and Encore now imports without re-encoding. But here's the problem now. Although I'm setting the project as 'Progressive', when I play it on my InterVideo PC DVD player, it still plays 30 frames per sec (stepping one frame at a time & watching the second counter), and the interlacing artifacts are awful. Shouldn't the PC DVD player recognize the progressive flags?
 
Re: All Adobe 24p DVD possible?

one of my pcs always plays back dvds interlaced..even though they are progressive. somtimes you have to set the option in you video card, or your system preferences.. but ive never gotten this one to work.. could just be the software?
 
Re: All Adobe 24p DVD possible?

I tried on my PC both in InterVideo WinDVD and Sonic Cinplayer. Played back OK in both with no interlacing.

However, I did notice some oddness in both concerning the display time when frame forwarding. On my settop player, I could step through one frame at a time and after 24 frames, the second readout would advance.

It seems a little more vague on both PC players I tested. It only seems to be updating the time display with each MPEG GOP (group of pictures). Since these don't necessarily fall on 1 second boundaries (in my Adobe Media Encoder tests, there are 15 or 16 frames in the GOP, but this might change.) So I couldn't click off 24 pictures and see the second advance. Sometimes I would click off 30, sometimes 12, etc. It's not a serious problem, just a vagueness in timekeeping.

But Steve, it sounds like you really are experiencing problems if you are seeing interlacing artifacts. Do you have anyplace you can post a *short* MPEG sample I can download and look at?

Also, did you try playing back on a set-top player, and if so what result did you get?

Finally, are you playing back a burned DVD in InterVideo or are you just playing back the encoded MPEG file. Sometimes these DirectShow-based players use a different MPEG decoder for file playback, as opposed to disc playback.

Sorry for so many questions.
 
Re: All Adobe 24p DVD possible?

IAL - I was wondering if it was the software. InverVideo WinDVD 4.0 says "29.97 fps framerate" in one of the information screen, but has no place to change it. I'm going to try a "hollywood" DVD to see if it interlaces.

Kevin - I'm playing back the burned DVD, not just the encoded file. How short is 'short' for something to post & would just the file be ok, or should I burn a very short DVD & post that file? The project in Premier Pro 1.5 plays back & looks great on the 23.976 timeline.

Also, I don't have a set top box (I live on-the-road in hotels.) I'll try to take it down to best buy see if they have a Progressive DVD & TV set up on display that I could try it in.
 
Re: All Adobe 24p DVD possible?

Steve, a file is OK, and in terms of length, anything over a couple of seconds should be sufficient.
 
Re: All Adobe 24p DVD possible?

The plot thickens. . .

I took my Encore created DVD (footage was fine as 24p in Premier 1.5), went to Best Buy, put it in a progressive scan DVD player (it wasn't hooked to a tv), and stepped through it frame by frame. The second counter would change on the 24th frame.

I put a commercial/hollywood DVD into my computer and played in in InterVideo WinDVD 4.0, and it would step at 24 fps and no visible interlacing. When I put the same Encore burned one into WinDVD on the pc, it sees it as 30fps/interlaced.

What's next?
 
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