Ain't nobody got time for that!

H

hermmermferm

Well-known member
Hey all, This might be an impossibility, but I have to ask.

Basically, I've been Run'n'Gun shooting/directing/editing a behind-the-scenes documentary on a very busy celebrity. So far it's just me, a 5Dmk3, Sony F3 and a Schoeps CMIT5U Shotgun mounted ontop of whatever camera I'm using into a Zoom H4N. And believe or not, it looks and sounds great so far. But alas, it's never enough for my picky tastes and I'm looking to use some Lavalieres occasionally. However, said celeb is super, super busy, wardrobe changes, new locations, crowded venues.. setting up a traditional receiver/transmitter would be a real hassle, near impossible. I was curious if there is another option out there, however cheap, bad, clip-on, super small, made-in-china, etc.. The Schoeps is my main and it's worth every penny, I'm just looking for the hit and miss lavaliere that might come in handy picking up something the Schoeps missed.
And yes, I would love to just hire a soundman.. Thanks for any info!!
 
Hey josh, since a normal lav setup is a no go for her, perhaps you could wire up her assistant (if they are willing) since you could easily pick up all the voices that are in her near vicinity. Short of there being some miraculous lav with built in transmitter.
 
dude that's an awesome solution! Does that advice come from first hand experiences with civil war re-enactors? ;) I'll probably run with that idea because her assistants are awesome..

So with that in mind, what lav would be in the best choice to mic one of her assistants with in order to capture the "talent" or best lav practice? I would image mic outside of clothing.. is there a kinda shotgun lavaliere so to speak?
 
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That I don't know, but there must be some lavs that are more omni-directional than others. If that teqnique worked in a civil war re-enactment with all that gunfire, and crowd noise it for damn sure should work behind the scenes on a stage. Just make sure her assistants don't bad mouth her!
 
in can find tons of covered mic or bug for spy work.
they are cheap and small and can be disguised into almost anything that can look nice enough.
 
The lav on an assistant can be good - depends on how much they are around eachother.

Most lavs are omni, and there are several good models like the sanken cos11, tram50 or the very small countryman B6, and there are some decent cheaper ones too like oscar sound tech, and the rode lav. Just make sure you order the right connectors to go with your chosen wireless system (there are also some differenses between sensitivity and EQ between models made for different situations).

For a wireless system, don't go for anything lower than a sennheiser G3, and aim higher if you can (look at lectrosonics and zaxcom).

On a side note, I like your setup - that's the most expensive mic I've heard being used with a zoom! :D
 
Jema said:
The lav on an assistant can be good - depends on how much they are around eachother.

Most lavs are omni, and there are several good models like the sanken cos11, tram50 or the very small countryman B6, and there are some decent cheaper ones too like oscar sound tech, and the rode lav. Just make sure you order the right connectors to go with your chosen wireless system (there are also some differenses between sensitivity and EQ between models made for different situations).

For a wireless system, don't go for anything lower than a sennheiser G3, and aim higher if you can (look at lectrosonics and zaxcom).

On a side note, I like your setup - that's the most expensive mic I've heard being used with a zoom! :D
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I saw his footage, and was AMAZED with the sound he got off of that just mounted on the camera. I think I'm going to start saving for one.....
 
Thanks for sharing all advice and the video remix, I've always got time for Sweet Brown! I'll definitely look into Lectrosonics and Zaxcom, I have experience with the Countryman's and liked them. I'm also thinking of switching out the Zoom H4N after everything I'm hearing about it, guess the Scheops has been balancing it out... Surprised the guy who reco'd Schoeps to me didn't say anything about the Zoom. I need something that has a monitor on it so I'm looking the Fostex FR-2 LE - does anyone know if this has 1/4" screw on the back?

Interested in that spy stuff too if you have more info. Dealing with more batteries for lavs and people who aren't familiar with expensive equipment isn't much of a plus either..
 
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The zoom has a pretty bad rep in the film community. I don't think it's a bad device in an of itself, it's just not made for film use. Somehow it ended up being the budget device of choice for many filmmakers on a tight budget, and they tend to have unrealistic expectations of what it can do. Among other things, it does have quite bad preamps and is sensitive to higher signals.

FR-2 LE is a good recorder for the price, but I don't remember if it has a screw or not. Are you thinking of attaching it to the bottom of the camera? Depending on how you want to use it, the meters may be a bit hard to see.

If I was doing documentary work, I would really want good limiters to cover for any nasty surprises in levels. That generally means a mixer, since most recorders short of professional gear (sound devices, zaxcom, nagra etc) only have digital limiters which do not defend against distortion. Instead of the FR2-Le, my pick for your situation would be the mixpre-D into a small recorder like a sony m10, olympus lsX (X being 10 or higher), roland r-05, or the tascam dr-40. If you are used to working without a limiter however and don't see a problem, the FR2 could be a good choice.

You might be able to get an original mixpre (the model before the "D" version) on the used market for relatively cheap. It's just as good as the D-model but without a few features - look it up.
 
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Thank you for taking the time to write such a thorough response! So invaluable! BIG thanks!

Honestly, the biggest concern for me is missing a moment. So if any suggestion adds extra gear, batteries or time to my setup I already view it with suspicion. I have actually tried to bring more gear but the talent requested that I slim down my setup which I can understand when you're surrounded by cameras all the time. I actually feel these restraints have made me a better "reality doc" filmmaker in some regards, I've shot with iPhones, and recorded in all sorts of unconventional ways. So when it comes to sound, although I'm always after the quality, I'm more concerned about the content - the MixPre looks like it'll add those timely extras unfortunately. But I have somewhat addressed the "surprises;" I run both the internal 5dMk3 or SonyF3 mic along with the Schoeps, Zoom combo, sync in post with plural eyes and if the Schoeps pops, I cut in the auto gain internal 5dMk3 or SonyF3. I also know Izotope and although I don't want to rely on it, I know it'll be there in a pinch. The FR2 looks like best option for keeping my slim setup while retaining good quality preamps.

Here are some pictures of my girl holding the talents favorite setup (so far):
8367488567_5a6937da66.jpg8368554672_07413d9560.jpg
 
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Honestly, the biggest concern for me is missing a moment. So if any suggestion adds extra gear, batteries or time to my setup I already view it with suspicion. I have actually tried to bring more gear but the talent requested that I slim down my setup which I can understand when you're surrounded by cameras all the time.
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Alright, I can understand that. If you're fine with the fact that you can replace the schoeps with other tracks, even if the quality is very different, then additional equipment is as you say not very viable.

Regarding the recorder, most out there are quieter than the zoom judging by specs, but if you haven't experienced any of your tracks as a bit noisy, then you might as well keep the zoom. It's only when you combine it with mics that have a low output, or try to use it with a mixer, that it can really give problems.

If you do hear some noise or want to replace the zoom for some other reason, then I would look at the FR2-LE, PMD661, or the DR100mkII. The FR2 has good preamps, but it's larger than a handheld. You should make sure it will fit the bill before buying (I don't know if you will try to mount it on the camera or wear it on your belt). The FR2 has two meters, one on the display on tops, and a led one at the side. The latter is convenient, but unfortunately not very good for dynamic and lower level recording, as it's hard to see the values then.
The PMD661 also has the display on top, and while it may be a little noisier than the FR2, it's better than most handhelds and only a little bit bigger.
The DR100mkII is a handheld that to form and size is very similar to the zoom, but it's a bit quieter and better with a mixer.

Also, have you ever tried to use a mixer to record straight to the camera? I haven't, but from what I've gathered it can give good results if calibrated correctly, and then you can replace your recorder with the mixpre-D or a juicedlink mixer, both of which has ouputs designed for use with DSLR (I would go for the mixpre if the money was there, as it has good metering and limiters).

I would look up and read about, and maybe try to rent a few of these options and decide which one would suit your use best. Also, what is your budget? If I knew then I might be able to give some better advice about where the money should be spent.


Other then that, for the purpose to cover more of the action and not miss anything, I think a lav is really the best option. If you don't mind it being seen then a clip-on or vampire clip could make for some very quick mounting.
 
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Another option if you really want to replace the Zoom with something with better preamps etc., but without the hassle of a separate mixer and recorder (and a sound bag) would, of course, be the Fostex DC-R302, which would sit neatly under - and screwed to - your camera/rig. Cheers, Roland
 
I forgot about the DC-R0302. It could fit the bill quite nicely for this - good suggestion.

The pricetag is pretty close to a mixpre and small recorder. The mixpre is better built and has very good sound quality, and would probably be a better choice for someone who want to make a long term investment. The r302 is a small all-in-one unit built specifically for use with DSLR's, and the quality is probably as good as or better then some of the other recorders mentioned - it might be just what you're looking for.
 
That fosdex looks great actually. I'd imagine I could power that off an Anton Bauer brick? Although 4x AA batteries doesn't seem like a bad deal to have to resort to.
 
I've used a Sound Devices Mix-PreD when shooting with my DSLR, and gone from my 416, into the Mix-PreD, and then out of that into the camera, as well as to a separate audio recorder. That's the route I would go. It can mount underneath your camera on your shoulder rig, and the level controls are right there.
 
What Dave says.... including funnier than **** video!
Also.. THAT SCHOEPS NEEDS A WIND SCREEN... and yes, I'm yelling at you.
 
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