Jan_Crittenden
Veteran
But it isn't an HDV camera. AVCHD runs rings around HDV.
Best,
Jan
Best,
Jan
AF-100 Wishlist/Suggestion Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Luis Caffesse
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Jan_Crittenden
Veteran
You couldn't be further from the truth about what we have to do to make this a viable video camera. Sorry. That HD-SDI is expensive. Foind me a single camcorder with it for $799.
Jan
Joe Walker
Well-known member
Hey Jan,
How difficult is 60p in 1080? I'm curious, as to how realistic this is, and as to why its so difficult to implement in these smaller camcorders. Just wondering if you could fill me in on the tech behind this.
How difficult is 60p in 1080? I'm curious, as to how realistic this is, and as to why its so difficult to implement in these smaller camcorders. Just wondering if you could fill me in on the tech behind this.
Is it $5,200 expensive? I think J Davis's point still stands. You take the features (and the similar design) of the $3,200 (with lens) HMC150, remove the expensive imaging block, add the image sensor of a $1,500 still camera (with lens), and now the camera's $6,000 (without lens). If it took so much effort and expense to make the imager suitable for video (since you already had most of the rest in a half-the-price camera), then maybe it was the wrong imager.
Mike Harvey
Veteran
First, I don't know that anyone ever said that it's coming without a lens. Second, look at the price difference between the HMC150 and HPX170. They're identical save for the format/media... and the fact that the HPX170 has HD-SDI. Look at the Canon XH-A1 and -G1 for that matter, they're completely identical save for the HD-SDI and they're roughly the same price difference.
And the GH1's price is irrelevant because it's apples and Volkswagens. The GH1 isn't coming with all the other features (like XLR sockets).
And honestly... it's their camera, they can sell it for whatever the heck they want and be totally justified doing it. No one is pointing a gun to your head saying you have to buy it. It's the free market, if you don't like it, buy the GH1 or GH2 when it comes out, or buy an HMC150. Or the Sony equivalent. Or a Scarlett.
Yak
Well-known member
Jan I agree that AVCHD is far better than HDV but it is not near as good as a P2 with AVC-Intra If I want AVCHD and the ability to use Still lens then I can get a 5D today.
Yes there are some problems using a DSLR to shoot video. I tried a 5D for a week and I have to say the image made my HVX200 look like mud in comparison, it also uses AVCHD. If Panasonic wants to sell the AF-100 for twice the price as a 5D then you need to offer more than pro audio input, headphone jack, SDI-HD out... YOU NEED TO OFER P2 and AVC-Intra, with out that option trying to sell a 4/3 chip over a full frame 35mm chip is going to be very difficult because the current short comings of DSLR will be fixed sooner than latter. Please make the AF-100 a true Pro Video Cam with your best Technology!
Let me remind you all that Jan is under no obligation to take the time to respond to posts or even be here. She donates her time and expertise and it's highly unusual for a company to take such a direct interest in what the users want and need. She has been pretty straight forward on what this camera is and isn't and if it doesn't meet your needs fortunately you don't have to buy it. Further, don't be rude or condescending or try and be a basement camera engineer to tell her what this camera should be and at what pricepoint. If you want to engage her, do it respectfully.
We know this camera won't have P2. That's done, so please leave that point alone. We don't know if a future camera will have it but this one won't and no amount of asking will change that. They are well aware that we would all prefer P2. So please let that request go, I am going to start deleting posts that keep rehashing that point from now on.
Lastly, be respectful. They don't need to do anything but they are more likely to listen to people's requests if there's respect behind it. If you're not happy with this camera then wait for the DSLR tech to catch up in two or three years time. This is a different market then the 5D/7D/GH1 so please keep the comparisons and complaints about price to a minimum.
We'll know more in a few months time on what features we requested made it into the final camera.
We know this camera won't have P2. That's done, so please leave that point alone. We don't know if a future camera will have it but this one won't and no amount of asking will change that. They are well aware that we would all prefer P2. So please let that request go, I am going to start deleting posts that keep rehashing that point from now on.
Lastly, be respectful. They don't need to do anything but they are more likely to listen to people's requests if there's respect behind it. If you're not happy with this camera then wait for the DSLR tech to catch up in two or three years time. This is a different market then the 5D/7D/GH1 so please keep the comparisons and complaints about price to a minimum.
We'll know more in a few months time on what features we requested made it into the final camera.
The 5D doesn't use AVCHD, does it? AVCHD is a Panasonic and Sony compression. Canon uses an H.264 compressed MJPEG, right?
The 5D made the HVX look like mud? I have to be honest, i've used both cameras, more regularly than I'd like to admit, and both images are good to my eye, depending on the content and manor of the shoot. Neither of those cameras used AVCHD.
Um, well, since Jan is here, I'll just say I'd like to be able to afford the camera at my current paygrade. In other words, if the camera can pay for itself over 24 months, I am comfortable with a 6k price tage, though my preference falls closer to 5k.
I am sure a camera with anti-aliasing and moring (did I spell that correctly), with uncompressed HDMI and SDI outputs, audio inputs, solid state card recording options (I'd prefer P2, but that's neither here nor there), variable frame rates (that's a big one canon won't be able to do), an HD LCD/something closer to native HD pixels, and better battery life will be worth the extra money we poney up for it. Not to mention the customer support that comes along with that pro price tag... Yea, Jan, you have my confidence on this one. If you need any beta testers, you just let me know...
Yak
Well-known member
I meant no disrespect and I apologize if I offended anyone. I am not sure if the market will be that different only time will tell. As for the P2, I requested it as an option, I have made a investment into P2 technology and would like to be able to easily continue using it with the AF-100. I still Love my HVX-200 and am shooting a nonfiction feature with it right now. I was actually very surprised to see the image of the 5D compared with the HVX-200 I am sure that the larger sensor in the AF-100 will hold up much better. I (and I am sure others) would like the AF-100 to be the best that it can be, which in my opinion adding a P2 and ACV-Intra as a OPTION would make it.
Yak
Well-known member
Thank you the 5D does not use "AVCHD" it does use H.264 compression, AVCHD utilizes MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 (AVC) video compression codec, so very little difference in my mind.
Jarek Zabczynski
Veteran
So I guess this camera plus a Nanoflash will be the way to go eh?
Mike Harvey
Veteran
AVC-Intra also uses H.264 compression... and I don't think anyone is going to expect the similar results out of AVC-Intra and the 5D's implementation of H.264. There are a LOT of different ways to implement H.264, and they aren't all equal. Much the same way DV, DVCam, and DVCProHD are all based on DV and HDV, XDCam-EX, and DVD video all use mpeg-2, comparing one H.264 format to another isn't exactly always comparing apples to apples.
Yak
Well-known member
to clarify AVCHD is much much better than HDV, and about the same as the codex that the 5D uses both AVCHD and the 5D are long GOP I believe they are also both 420 not 422. AVC-Intra is a 422 codex that can record all I frames. Panasonic has developed AVC-Intra to be one of the best acquisition codex. Do to the higher bit-rate that AVC-Intra requires I do not believe we will see SD cards that can handle AVC-Intra thus the need for P2.
Starshine Video
Well-known member
With the Info that is now available that is my plan. Well Kind of, the NanoFlash will be a rented item for times that it is needed.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Canon uses AVCHD in its consumer camcorders. In the SLRs it uses h.264 .MOV files. AVCHD is h.264, so it's largely the same thing, but the DSLR version is quite inferior to that of the AVCCAM camcorders. Simply put, the codec in the AF100 will blow away the codec in the SLRs, and be less than half the file size too.
There isn't any such thing as h.264-compressed MJPEG. Those are two different codecs; h.264 and MJPEG. The Canon DSLRs use h.264 with no b-frames. The Nikon DSLRs use MJPG. The GH1 has both.
Barry_Green
Moderator
In theory, this is true, but in reality it isn't, and that's because h.264 can be implemented in many ways. The AVCHD that's implemented in the GH1 is quite inferior to HDV. The h.264 in the 5D is about the same as HDV as far as visual quality goes, but it takes up twice the space. The AVCHD in the AF100 will be substantially superior to HDV, and takes up less space.
All the above are long-GoP 8-bit 4:2:0 codecs. None can compare to AVC-Intra, of course, being a 100-megabit intraframe 10-bit codec. But AVC-Intra is not an option on the AF100. Any requests for AVC-Intra or P2 would pertain to a DIFFERENT CAMERA, probably something like an AF150 or something. The AF100 is going to be SDXC AVCCAM AVCHD.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Well, a Nano would be an option, but it's a lot of money to spend for a boost in quality. I'd say you should try out AVCCAM recording before deciding you need to drop three grand on a Nano.
Jarek Zabczynski
Veteran
It just seems like a step backwards to go from working in 100mb DVCPROHD to 24mb AVVCAM. I've worked with 5D and 7D footage before, and while it "looks awesome" at first glance, I just found it hard to work with. I tend to do a lot of effects in post and the h.264 just wasn't cutting it. Transcoding footage to prores is not like re-wrapping mxf files.
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