AF-100 Wishlist/Suggestion Discussion Thread

[robertrogoz]

Well, let's examine this carefully -- we're saying that at the very worst, the AF100 should have an equivalent DOF, better low light, and equally sharp pictures as the EX1, when the EX1 is at its very best.

Then, if you put on a 35mm lens, the AF100 *destroys* the EX1 in low light and DOF.

Better low light- you are contradicting what Ottis said:
"Better low light with the 10x zoom? It depends. f4.0 (AF-100) requires more than 4x the ISO of f1.9 (EX1/3). Will the AF-100 have an ISO1600 so clean that it will compare with the ISO400 equivalent of the EX1/3?"
Good question and that is my feeling too. My worry is, that it will be re-packaged and hyped GH1 and so far Panasonic even did not match the lens with anything Nikon or Canon produces. My feeling is also that of the stock lens is used on the camera I will have to spend additional couple of grand on the lenses, to take advantage of DOF and increase light sensitivity. Then we are talking a cost of EX3, which besides crappy ergonomics is the best bang for a buck for interchangeable lens camcorder.

So in the worst possible case, it's as good as the EX1 in the EX1's best possible case. And in its best possible case, it embarrasses the EX1.

Looking from my perspective it might perform below EX1 (due to noise), unless a new lens is designed.

So -- the question becomes -- why would you ever even *consider* an EX1?[

For me the question is unchanged. I know you are tied to Panasonic and I am happy for you it works out great in that respect, but I look past hype, spin and pre-release marketing and as a paying (potential) future consumer I will vote with my$$$. I am happy Panasonic actually listens to our concerns, but at the end of the day I will purchase the best bang for a buck.

And while you may not want to "have to deal with AVCHD", there are plenty of us who'd much rather "have to deal with" a better more robust codec that takes up half the file space.

Unfortunately the buyer will determine the specs. I don't have bias towards any of the codecs, but for now most of the edit bays are not able to handle AVCHD.

 

[Barry_Green]

and so far Panasonic even did not match the lens with anything Nikon or Canon produces.

Not sure what that's supposed to mean -- does Canon or Nikon produce any zoom lens with silent video-capable autofocus, chromatic aberration compensation, and barrel distortion correction? It's a lot safer to say Canon and Nikon haven't produced a lens that matches what the Lumix lens does.

But it's really pretty irrelevant, as you could attach any Nikon or Canon lens you wanted to an AF100.

Then we are talking a cost of EX3, which besides crappy ergonomics is the best bang for a buck for interchangeable lens camcorder.

Really? I think the HPX370 is a much better bang for the buck, seeing as it's more sensitive, less noisy, just as sharp, has much better ergonomics, has a codec and recording media that far exceed anything the EX3 have, and costs less.

Looking from my perspective it might perform below EX1 (due to noise), unless a new lens is designed.

Only if you want to use the stock lens, and I would find that debatable anyway. But you could always put on any fast zoom from any camcorder and get much better low light performance.

I know you are tied to Panasonic

In what way? They don't pay my bills, I'm not an employee of them. I just happen to think that their products work very well, and stand up quite well to anything the competition offers. They are a customer of mine, in that they buy books from me to put in the camcorder box, so if that constitutes being "tied to them" then so be it.

and as a paying (potential) future consumer I will vote with my$$$.

That's what you should do. All I'm trying to do is point out what the reality is, versus what the presuppositions and hype are.

I don't have bias towards any of the codecs, but for now most of the edit bays are not able to handle AVCHD.

Which ones are those?

Even the particular NLE that has its head firmly stuck in a tape-based workflow, allows AVCHD import through its Log & Transfer. And the rest of the edit bays are Avid, which supports importing AVCHD as of MC5, doesn't it? Neither allow native editing of the raw codec, but then again, they couldn't do that with HDCAM or HDCAM SR, and people managed to edit that footage on those same NLEs. So I don't think it's accurate at all to say that most of the edit bays are not able to handle AVCHD.

It's hard to blame the camcorder manufacturers though, when supporting AVCHD natively in the edit bays means a relatively minor software update (which Premiere Pro CS5, EDIUS, Vegas, and SpeedEdit have all implemented so far).

 

[robertrogoz]

Not sure what that's supposed to mean -- does Canon or Nikon produce any zoom lens with silent video-capable autofocus, chromatic aberration compensation, and barrel distortion correction? It's a lot safer to say Canon and Nikon haven't produced a lens that matches what the Lumix lens does.

Well, except it's F4, while most of the good Nikon and Canon zooms are 2.8. They also produce lenses (non zoom) going down to F1.2. If Lumix starts producing such lenses for GH1 let me know. Also Nikon and Canon I use hardly produce any aberration, why compensate for something, that is not there in the first place.

Really? I think the HPX370 is a much better bang for the buck, seeing as it's more sensitive, less noisy, just as sharp, has much better ergonomics, has a codec and recording media that far exceed anything the EX3 have, and costs less.

Really? Let me see- (from B&H) EX3 costs $8,320 while HPX370 is 9,200. Yes- HPX gives you 2x 16GB cards, but it's still $880 bucks more for a camera. Not to mention 370 is 1/3 chip vs 1/2 inch chip on EX3.

All I'm trying to do is point out what the reality is, versus what the presuppositions and hype are.

LOL! like calling HPX370 cheaper then EX3, even it costs $880 more?

 

[Gary Huff]

Not to mention 370 is 1/3 chip vs 1/2 inch chip on EX3.

Ah, yes, that old argument.

 

[LoganMackay]

Digging a hole...

 

[Barry_Green]

LOL! like calling HPX370 cheaper then EX3, even it costs $880 more?

Hah! You got me there. I was basing my statements on the $9200 being the MAP price, not the actual selling price; I had understood the HPX370 to be selling for less than that. But it doesn't appear to be that way at B&H right now; not sure about at other dealers.

So, yeah, as of today it looks like the HPX370 does indeed cost more. As it should, of course, since it does so much more.

 

[Barry_Green]

And, once again, it looks like we've managed to get entirely off track, with HPX370 vs. EX3 discussions taking place in the AF100 wishlist thread, so ... back on track, please.

 

[robertrogoz]

And, once again, it looks like we've managed to get entirely off track, with HPX370 vs. EX3 discussions taking place in the AF100 wishlist thread, so ... back on track, please.

No, I think it's right on topic. I think if Panasonic will just match EX1 with AF100 there is hardly any point in buying it. So we are mentioning the cameras, their features and the prices and we say it has to be better if you want to charge 6K for it or there is going to be a few buyers instead of market kill.
To point out it needs a lens with servo zoom, something people are used to work with with F2.8 minimum. And it has to be out of the box, I don't want to spend additional 2 or 3 grand on glass so I can actually get decent shots. Just matching existing equipment will not get people rush and buy it. A lot of posters point out, where the bar is at the moment and we are communicating through this bb what our expectations are from the new designs. It's not we are trying to diss Panasonic equipment, actually Panasonic is one of the few companies that actually listens.

 

[Bassman2003]

Robert raises very good points.

One unknown is the ISO performance. The 5DMKII is clean up to ISO 1250. This is a huge number compared to normal video cameras. If the AF-100 sensor can get the ISO numbers up, the lens choices will not be as crucial.

Lets face it, if the AF-100 is seen as close to the EX-1 in terms of light gathering and DOF in normal shooting situations the point of the camera has been missed. Why spend $6,000 when this look can be had with the vDSLRs? It would seem the price would be about audio inputs.

I don't think this will happen. Panasonic has too much experience and it would be a poor financial decision as well.

The end of 2010 and 2011 wil be quite a show for the imaging world. I think from the consumer's point of view, the longer one can wait to purchase any of these cameras the better as the pace of change is very quick.

 

[dcloud]

i dont think the servo zoom is a big deal. this cam may not target ENG at all. look at the people who uses 5d or dslrs with no servo zoom. they seem to be plenty out there.

af100 isnt seen as close to ex1 since you can interchange the lens with faster ones. and obviously if it solves moire and is as sharp as an ex1, it definitely beats vdslrs.

this debate is going in circles.

 

[Jan_Crittenden]

Here is another rumor from dvinfo:
"Last news are saying the Af100 will feed the HD-SDI with 4:2:0, not 4:2:2...
The NanoFlash will be useless, and so is the SDI output.
I hope it's a mistake. If it's not, I don't think Panasonic will sell a lot."
Anyone can confirm? However if it is true it will be a consumer cam with high price tag.

HD-SDI is a standard, and that is 4:2:2. Obviously written by someone that is truly clueless.

The Codec is 4:2:0 just like any Long GOP codec, but this is AVCHD which is a powerful codec that is vastly better than any of the MPG2s.

Best,

jan

 

[J Davis]

Hi Jan what are your thoughts on the GH1 and the Tester13 hack?

Does this affect the development of the AF100?

.

 

[Jan_Crittenden]

The hack only shows that the GH1 is not the camera for serious filmmakers, it says that something else is desired. All of the add-ons that people buy to make any of the DSLRs viable for use is the same indicator. None of this influences what is happening with the AF100 as it is not made by the same factory or the same engineering group. So people can sit here and postulate what it is and what it will be and can do, but until it is making pictures and we can see it, no one really knows anything.

Best,

jan

 

[J Davis]

Hi Jan, I haven't been reading this thread so I have missed many of the postulations you refer to but knowing this forum I can well imagine. I wrote because I saw you were posting. I must admit I am surprised at your response ...

The hack only shows that the GH1 is not the camera for serious filmmakers, ...

Yes it shows there is a lot to be desired but more than that it show that we are are hungry. It shows the lengths and breadths that people will go to to get what they are looking for. High bit rates, shallow dof. I realize that Pana may frown upon such doings but this is a thriving market waiting to be tapped. A huge sign as to how well the AF100 could be received provided it also taps into what people want.

I am hoping that Pana can use this hack situation to their advantage thereby making the next product better for the consumer.

So to summary - can you give an official response to the hack from Panasonic?



.

 

[Yak]

Jan

Thank you for listening, I hope that Panasonic makes this camera the best that it can be the way they did with the DVX-100 and HVX-200 both cutting edge cameras that let "filmmakers" create programs that had a look way above the competitions cameras.

 

[Gary Huff]

Jan,

Just to throw this your way, I'm hearing from a lot of my fellow videographers in the area that they are strongly eying the AF-100 for purchase when it comes out...though usually most of them don't even remember what the model number is (just, "that new Panasonic camera with the lens mount...yeah, I'm getting that.")

 

[Barry_Green]

Yes it shows there is a lot to be desired but more than that it show that we are are hungry. It shows the lengths and breadths that people will go to to get what they are looking for. High bit rates, shallow dof. I realize that Pana may frown upon such doings but this is a thriving market waiting to be tapped. A huge sign as to how well the AF100 could be received provided it also taps into what people want.

Exactly. And Panasonic knows that, they've been listening, they've been going to cinematographers and videographers, they've been holding discussion groups and focus groups, they've gotten suggestions and wishlists. This is the company that listens to what their customers want. They know that. Which is why the AF100 is what it is.

I am hoping that Pana can use this hack situation to their advantage thereby making the next product better for the consumer.

Of course they're doing so. Listen to what she said -- she said that the GH1 (and other DSLRs) don't really do what the professional filmmaker really wants. The AF100, on the other hand, is intended to do exactly what the filmmaker wants. Without having to be hacked. It'll just work right the first time, right out of the box.

So to summary - can you give an official response to the hack from Panasonic?

Jan doesn't work for the consumer company, she works for a different company entirely. She couldn't make any sort of "official statement" about a product from a different company. She can offer her personal opinion, or perhaps the opinion of what Panasonic Solutions Company thinks about what people are doing with a product from Panasonic Consumer, but that wouldn't be what you appear to be asking for. If you want an official statement from Panasonic as to how they view the GH1 hack, you'd have to find someone in Panasonic Consumer Products to make that statement.

 

[Barry_Green]

No, I think it's right on topic. I think if Panasonic will just match EX1 with AF100 there is hardly any point in buying it.

Robert, I simply do not understand you. At all. You're making no sense.

You say that the AF100 will "just match" the EX1. Do you recognize the difference between interchangeable and fixed lenses? Sony does -- they make pretty much the exact same camera, the EX3 and EX1, and one of them offers interchangeable lenses. And they charge about $2300 more for it. So if interchangeable lenses matter, you should be comparing the AF100 against the EX3. And if interchangeable lenses don't matter, you should be mocking Sony for producing the EX3, when it only "matches" the EX1.

So, assuming that interchangeable lenses DO matter, you're talking about an AF100 at $6000 that matches an EX3 at $8320. Substantial difference, yes? I can't imagine how someone could argue against that.

Now, secondly -- I listed many ways that the HPX370 embarrasses the EX3, and you came back with "yeah, but the EX3 has bigger chips." So even though the EX3 DOESN'T match the HPX370 for codec quality or ergonomics or form factor or sensitivity or for noise performance, and it only manages to match it for resolution, you still think the EX3 is somehow better because it has "bigger chips."

Okay, applying your logic, a chip that performs no better, but only "matches" another, but happens to be slightly bigger, is therefore "better." Why then is an AF100 not PROFOUNDLY better than the EX1, when the AF100's chip is bigger... and by bigger, I'm not talking about the measly difference between 1/3" and 1/2", I'm talking about a chip that is OVER SEVEN TIMES LARGER. Seven times as big.

Either big chips matter, or they don't. Either interchangeable lenses matter, or they don't.

The AF100 offers at least two huge and massive benefits over the EX1 -- a massive chip for shallow DOF, and interchangeable lenses. If you see no value to those items, by all means get and keep an EX1 and be happy with it. But the rest of us do happen to see huge and substantial benefits to those two items, and we don't think an EX1 is a match at all. The EX1 is a handycam video camera with a small chip and a fixed lens. The AF100 is a digital cinema camera with a cinema-sized sensor and interchangeable lenses.

 

[Jan_Crittenden]

So to summary - can you give an official response to the hack from Panasonic?

While it is not in my division, I would say that it probably violates the warranty but I don't know.

Best,

Jan

 

[Noel Evans]

Ive been thinking about this and Ive decided. That not only do I want a p2 version, but I also want a S35 size chip version. You think I could ask for more?