AF-100 Wishlist/Suggestion Discussion Thread

[Erik Olson]

...if I was doing something like shooting for "Life" on Discovery, I'd rather be shooting on P2 than on consumer media from Wally-World. P2 is just going to take a heck of a lot more abuse than an SD or CF card. Plus, with a Red, chances are if the card craps out, you're shooting something that allows you just re-shoot the shot. Not really the case in the depths of an Amazon rain forest.

Precisely my point. The camera should be built to nothing less than that standard. The AF100 will be such a flexible camera, it will very likely become a favorite for documentary and unscripted work. Based on the preliminary specs we're seeing, 100% of our interview work (fantastic DOF control) will be completed on AF100s. With some ENG lens support, they might just be well-suited to many aspects of field production.

 

[dcloud]

Is it DECEMBER yet???

Christmas gift for myself... :2vrolijk_08::love4:

 

[Barry_Green]

Actually... aren't the new E series P2 cards built around CF chips instead of SD?

No... where did this idea come from??

All the "A" and "E" P2 cards are built from the core memory components that go into SD cards. The original series were built using actual SD cards, but the newer ones don't use the whole cards, they just use the core memory technology out of the cards.

 

[Erik Olson]

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1968974&postcount=1

And this is precisely why. Things happen. Surprising, shocking and expensive things.

 

[Mike Harvey]

No... where did this idea come from??

All the "A" and "E" P2 cards are built from the core memory components that go into SD cards. The original series were built using actual SD cards, but the newer ones don't use the whole cards, they just use the core memory technology out of the cards.

I thought I read when the E-series were first announced they were using CF chips instead of SD. My mistake.

 

[Kholi]

Do you mean that you think they're not serious about the AVCCAM version? And that they intend to instead do it as a P2 product?

I don't think so. They're very serious about AVCCAM, it's a huge investment for them and h.264 is the post-MPEG-2 future. I think if they only release one camera, it'll be AVCCAM. I'm hoping they release two. Actually, my ideal world would be that they release one switchable camera that can record to P2 (sorry for those who don't agree, but I vastly prefer P2 over SDHC) but I'd love to be able to record AVCCAM and AVC-I on that P2 card.

If it's got to be SDXC/SDHC, well, okay -- but I'd still want to record AVC-I and AVCCAM onto that SDXC card.

Hmmm, you know what I just thought of? If people continue to clamor for a P2 version of this camera, perhaps it's special order only? It may not be Panasonic practice but, as we can all see, practice-- or convention-- is sort of out-of-the-window here.

This could help Panasonic keep the production costs low, not have to ship them out to retailers and increase the possibility/probability of a second version.

I, however, and COMPLETELY fine with a moire/alias, mud and banding free AVC-CAM image. I do NOT want DVCproHD. AVC-Intra, sure, but DVCproHD is old hat.

 

[Kholi]

So Jan you just confirm it for real?

Because you said this does not line skip then this is a totally new sensor from Panasonic micro 4/3rds size (sorry I said apsc earlier).

And since it doesn't line skip it creates 1080p naturally on a 1:1 instead of downscaled from a still camera resolution ???????

This is BIG BIG news if its fast enough for 24 frames per second without line skipping.

Even if it does line-skip, if it's resolute and moire/aliasing free... as in a very clear video image... what difference does it really make?

It won't out-resolve a RED or any other "kinda" RAW image. If it resolves on-par with the EX-1, who's really going to complain???

I do NOT think the camera should be shooting to accomplish a RAW CINEMA TOOL STANDARD... I do think it needs to be as good as an EX-1 so-far-in-as resolved detail, or somewheres in the ballpark of the new HPX3700 if possible.

 

[Dan_Kanes]

Even if it does line-skip, if it's resolute and moire/aliasing free... as in a very clear video image... what difference does it really make?

It won't out-resolve a RED or any other "kinda" RAW image. If it resolves on-par with the EX-1, who's really going to complain???

I do NOT think the camera should be shooting to accomplish a RAW CINEMA TOOL STANDARD... I do think it needs to be as good as an EX-1 so-far-in-as resolved detail, or somewheres in the ballpark of the new HPX3700 if possible.

Kholi, good points - but it is precisely the line-skipping that I believe is the major cause of aliasing and moire on the HDSLR cameras. It would be better if the whole sensor is read (or has huge pixels) and then downsampled with a very good scaling algorithm (specialty chip) to output the final image. The larger camera body will acommodate the space needed to house, power and cool the necessary hardware to do a full sensor readout.

I think it would be cool if the mount conforms to the M4/3 standard but is natively a 16:9 chip rather than cropping the center out of a 4:3 chip. Who's with me on that one?

I'd also like to request the possibility of recording a 2538x1080 sort of 2.5K 2:35 aspect ratio mode. maybe only record one audio channel in that mode to allow for the extra bandwidth or something?

 

[Ben_B]

I like SD cards because it keeps the cost of the camera (and the media but I am more concerned about the camera) down.

You have your HD outputs that can go to a recorder if that's really what you want. If that's out of your budget then you can see how your demand that this camera use P2 could put it out of the budget of a lot of us.

Hey quick question? The parts of District 9 shot on the EX1 (all subjective camera stuff where the camera was diagetically camera I believe): does anyone know if they used XDCAM-EX or recorded to something else through outputs?

 

[Kholi]

Yeah, I'm with SD Cards as well. Again, the camera's ALREADY stated to have an HD-SDI port. Why not just add your own flavor of P2 if it's that instrumental to your process?

There are lots of options to bypass AVCcam without having to create an entirely different camera. And, hell, you can DUAL record that way, as well.

 

[Sumfun]

All true, but (and this is coming from someone with an HMC150 who has no desire to invest in P2 at the moment), if I was doing something like shooting for "Life" on Discovery, I'd rather be shooting on P2 than on consumer media from Wally-World. P2 is just going to take a heck of a lot more abuse than an SD or CF card. Plus, with a Red, chances are if the card craps out, you're shooting something that allows you just re-shoot the shot. Not really the case in the depths of an Amazon rainforest.

This is where Panasonic's marketing has done a good job. In some ways, CF and SD cards are actually more reliable than P2 cards. P2 has an extra processor chip, and uses a bigger circuit board, both of which reduces the mean time to failure. The P2 has holes that and jam and the socket has pins that can break. CF has fewer pins, and SD none at all. Jan likes to throw her P2 cards on the floor to show how tough they are, but you can do the same with with CF and SD cards. If you stomp on the cards, the P2 might do better because of the metal casing, but the CF and SD cards are small, so your foot might miss them altogether ;-) My point is that even in the toughest situations, I think the camera will fail before the media does.

Panasonic has been saying that CF and SD just don't have the speed or reliability of P2 cards. That may have been the case 5 years ago when P2 first came out, but it certainly isn't the case today. As I mentioned earlier, many pros use CF (and SD) cards on critical jobs everyday. And with the new CFAST and SDXC cards starting to ship, these cards are more than fast enough. In fact it's the P2 cards that have fallen behind because the PC Card form factor, which used to be ubiquitous, is now all but gone from laptops.

I have nothing against Panasonic for pushing P2 cards. They need to make money any way they can. But if given the choice, I would prefer to use the non-proprietary cards. For me, the benefits of P2 don't outweigh the costs.

 

[Kholi]

Kholi, good points - but it is precisely the line-skipping that I believe is the major cause of aliasing and moire on the HDSLR cameras. It would be better if the whole sensor is read (or has huge pixels) and then downsampled with a very good scaling algorithm (specialty chip) to output the final image. The larger camera body will acommodate the space needed to house, power and cool the necessary hardware to do a full sensor readout.

I think it would be cool if the mount conforms to the M4/3 standard but is natively a 16:9 chip rather than cropping the center out of a 4:3 chip. Who's with me on that one?

I'd also like to request the possibility of recording a 2538x1080 sort of 2.5K 2:35 aspect ratio mode. maybe only record one audio channel in that mode to allow for the extra bandwidth or something?

What compression spec would fit that 2.5K?

We all know what line-skipping does, but does it matter if the OLPF corrects it all and you STILL get resolution out of the image that's on Par with the EX-1 or HPX3700s MINUS aliasing, moire, mud, banding?

 

[combatentropy]

This is where Panasonic's marketing has done a good job. In some ways, CF and SD cards are actually more reliable than P2 cards. P2 has an extra processor chip, and uses a bigger circuit board, both of which reduces the mean time to failure. The P2 has holes that and jam and the socket has pins that can break. CF has fewer pins, and SD none at all. Jan likes to throw her P2 cards on the floor to show how tough they are, but you can do the same with with CF and SD cards. If you stomp on the cards, the P2 might do better because of the metal casing, but the CF and SD cards are small, so your foot might miss them altogether ;-) My point is that even in the toughest situations, I think the camera will fail before the media does.

Panasonic has been saying that CF and SD just don't have the speed or reliability of P2 cards. That may have been the case 5 years ago when P2 first came out, but it certainly isn't the case today. As I mentioned earlier, many pros use CF (and SD) cards on critical jobs everyday. And with the new CFAST and SDXC cards starting to ship, these cards are more than fast enough. In fact it's the P2 cards that have fallen behind because the PC Card form factor, which used to be ubiquitous, is now all but gone from laptops.

I have nothing against Panasonic for pushing P2 cards. They need to make money any way they can. But if given the choice, I would prefer to use the non-proprietary cards. For me, the benefits of P2 don't outweigh the costs.

+1

Also, 100 Mbps is just 12.5 MB/sec.
AVCHD is 24 Mbps, which is just 3 MB/sec.

 

[xmephestox]

I like SD cards because it keeps the cost of the camera (and the media but I am more concerned about the camera) down.

You have your HD outputs that can go to a recorder if that's really what you want. If that's out of your budget then you can see how your demand that this camera use P2 could put it out of the budget of a lot of us.

Hey quick question? The parts of District 9 shot on the EX1 (all subjective camera stuff where the camera was diagetically camera I believe): does anyone know if they used XDCAM-EX or recorded to something else through outputs?

I believe they were just recording to SxS cards, I remember reading about it, the DIT for district 9 wrote a bit about it. They mainly used the EX1's for the CCTV stuff, and a little bit of the fo-docu stuff. The 1080p out of the EX1 holds up amazing on the big screen, I've seen it first hand on many occasions, then again I've seen stuff shot on hvx200 hold up just as well.

As long as it's a full HDSDI coming out of the af 100, everybody will have their options. Granted not everybody can afford a ki pro or nano flash, but what's really the difference you spending 2-4 grand on a ki pro, and panasonic upping the price of the camera by 2-4 grand by putting AVC board in there, and p2 options? And you'd be spending money on p2! Full 1.3 deep color HDMI out and HD SDI is going to make a huge difference with this camera, the rest will rely on the sensor and the noise floor. Plus I remember see vids of Jan saying that the AVCCAM footage keys beautifully.

I mean honestly, if they can get 5d footage to key great, why not AVCCAM? As long as the noise floor is really good, you'll get good keys. I've seen DVX footage key fine...

 

[dcloud]

ive keyed avccam and its waay better than hdv

 

[Ben_B]

I believe they were just recording to SxS cards, I remember reading about it, the DIT for district 9 wrote a bit about it. They mainly used the EX1's for the CCTV stuff, and a little bit of the fo-docu stuff. The 1080p out of the EX1 holds up amazing on the big screen, I've seen it first hand on many occasions, then again I've seen stuff shot on hvx200 hold up just as well.

As long as it's a full HDSDI coming out of the af 100, everybody will have their options. Granted not everybody can afford a ki pro or nano flash, but what's really the difference you spending 2-4 grand on a ki pro, and panasonic upping the price of the camera by 2-4 grand by putting AVC board in there, and p2 options? And you'd be spending money on p2! Full 1.3 deep color HDMI out and HD SDI is going to make a huge difference with this camera, the rest will rely on the sensor and the noise floor. Plus I remember see vids of Jan saying that the AVCCAM footage keys beautifully.

I mean honestly, if they can get 5d footage to key great, why not AVCCAM? As long as the noise floor is really good, you'll get good keys. I've seen DVX footage key fine...

The AVCHD of this camera is at least as good as XDCAM EX so that's good to know.

When the film department at our school was looking for a new camera to get they went with the EX1 over more HVXs (already have and still use em) because they actually found it keyed better (weird huh?) The theory I've heard is that the 4:2:0 color allows it to see fewer imperfections in the green screen...or something. That and the added sharpness and resolution....I still prefer the HVX though

 

[J Davis]

Even if it does line-skip, if it's resolute and moire/aliasing free... as in a very clear video image... what difference does it really make?

It won't out-resolve a RED or any other "kinda" RAW image. If it resolves on-par with the EX-1, who's really going to complain???

I do NOT think the camera should be shooting to accomplish a RAW CINEMA TOOL STANDARD... I do think it needs to be as good as an EX-1 so-far-in-as resolved detail, or somewheres in the ballpark of the new HPX3700 if possible.

Whatever technique they use to avoid the aliasing and moire I'm down with.

But I think its unlikely that they can do it without ditching the current line skipping pixel binning sensor and following the path RED has gone with a 1:1 no downsampling and make it fast

 

[Bucknfl]

"(J) LENS WISHLIST:

A kit lens zoom with a decent range (18-80mm range).
Kit lens should be as fast as possible (f2).
Kit lens should have a rocker zoom, as to make the camera decent for event videography. "

And same maximum aperture throughout the zoom range!

 

[Ben_B]

"(J) LENS WISHLIST:

A kit lens zoom with a decent range (18-80mm range).
Kit lens should be as fast as possible (f2).
Kit lens should have a rocker zoom, as to make the camera decent for event videography. "

And same maximum aperture throughout the zoom range!

Not what this camera is for....

I need my iPhone to shoot 1080/60p HD and take interchangeable lenses so I can shoot my movies on it.

I need my Nikon FM2 to shoot digital photos as well as 35mm.

I need my iMac to come with a battery so I can carry it around with me and use it anywhere.

I need my bicycle to have an engine and a steering wheel.

I need my GH1 to have an optical drive so I can watch DVDs on it.

This is what those demanding that this digital cinema camera have ENG features sound like. It's not for you. I know that you personally already have 2 HMC-150s...why do you need this camera? Why do you need it to do these things if you already have cameras that do?

 

[Stephen Mick]

Not what this camera is for....

I need my iPhone to shoot 1080/60p HD and take interchangeable lenses so I can shoot my movies on it.

I need my Nikon FM2 to shoot digital photos as well as 35mm.

I need my iMac to come with a battery so I can carry it around with me and use it anywhere.

I need my bicycle to have an engine and a steering wheel.

I need my GH1 to have an optical drive so I can watch DVDs on it.

This is what those demanding that this digital cinema camera have ENG features sound like. It's not for you. I know that you personally already have 2 HMC-150s...why do you need this camera? Why do you need it to do these things if you already have cameras that do?

Last I checked this was a "wish list" thread. Just because something may not be useful to you, or even to most people, doesn't mean someone who wants it shouldn't "wish" for it.