Advice - Vegas vs. PPro CS4?

M

Metrolens

Well-known member
Hi all, I'm about to begin post on a short narrative film, and could use some advice from the resident gurus about which programs I should use.

Quick details:
-Film was shot with the XH-A1, 24F, 1080i HDV. We used a Brevis adapter, so the image is currently upside down.
-My computer is a Q6600 Quad Core 2.4 GHz, 3 GB Ram. I have an nVidia Quadro NVS 285 Video Card (128 MB Ram). I do not have a capture card or Blackmagic card; footage will have to be captured via Firewire.
-Final output for the film will be SD DVDs, and hopefully Blu-Ray. Finished film will be around 20 minutes.


So, here are my questions:

1. I own Vegas 7, which I really like, and the first Adobe Video Collection (with Premiere 1.5, Encore 1.5, Photoshop CS, AE 6.5, etc). I liked PPro 1.5 fine until I got Vegas. But my mind remains open to PPro CS4.

In order to create Blu-Rays, I will need to upgrade my NLE to either Vegas 8 (which burns Blu-Ray direct from the timeline), or to the upcoming CS4. Vegas 8 would be cheaper, but not by much, as I'm elligible to get PPro CS4 and Encore CS4 as an upgrade for 300 bucks. (And I'd probably just get the whole suite for 600).

So can anyone give advice on which would be a better choice, given my situation and this project? Are there any glaring limitations posed by either Vegas 8 or CS4, which I should be aware of?

2. Do both Vegas 8 and PPro CS4 preserve audio tracks when exporting the audio for a ProTools session? (FCP can preserve the individual tracks for editing within ProTools).

3. With either CS4 or Vegas 8, do I really need NeoHDV or Aspect HD? Remember my footage is flipped. I know Vegas 7 will quickly flip your footage via the Pan/Crop tool. But doesn't this method degrade the footage? I know the Cineform products have a "Flip During Capture" function, is this superior? Beyond the flip issue, should I capture to a Cineform codec anyway, given the CC that will invariably happen after cutting?

4. How much space do .m2t files take up per minute of footage? How about Cineform files?
 
2. Do both Vegas 8 and PPro CS4 preserve audio tracks when exporting the audio for a ProTools session? (FCP can preserve the individual tracks for editing within ProTools).
Click to expand...

Vegas doesnt support OMF output, but Premiere CS4 now does (as far as I know). You can use AAF to output to Protools but I believe OMF is better.


Not sure about the other questions. I've never worked with XH-A1 footage before. Someone else will hopefully chime in!
 
11.25 GB/hour?

11.25 GB/hour?

To address question #4, according to Wikipedia, 1080i HDV uses a data rate of 3.125 MB/s. So by my math:

1 minute = 187.5 MB
1 hour = 11,250 MB (or 11.25 GB)

And next, from Cineform's website:
"HDV: For 1440 x 1080 60i HDV material, you can expect a range of arount 10 - 14 MBytes/sec, or around 40GB/hour. In comparison, 1280 x 720 24p material will be about half that size."

So, is it accurate to conclude:
HDV 1080i = 11.25 GB/hour
Cineform HDV = 40 GB/hour

Then again, by Cineform's logic, shouldn't 24F 1080i Cineform files be somewhat smaller than the stated 40 GB/sec?
 
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How each program functions and delivers your need is a matter of preference. Personally, I say, Go with Premiere Pro CS4. You will have so much more of the advantages of smooth intergration between After Effects, Encore, On-location, Audition, Photoshop, Etc.
 
Do some home works and make your decision accordingly. Sounds like you already know most of everything about both software.
 
1. No one can tell you which would be better for *you*. That is solely up to you.

2. Audio editor in the Sony suite is quite good. I have no knowledge of ProTools or what it needs.

3. What are you using Cineform for? An intermediate editing codec? No, you don't need it, you can edit in an uncompressed format or something else. I use Cineform and like it, but that doesn't mean you need to. Flipping an image is a rearranging of pixels. There is no calculation necessary so no degradation should take place.

4. Answered.
 
Hi,

I'm a trainer of both Adobe and Vegas software. You could be happy with either. A lot will depend upon your work flow, how you will be sharing and processing your content, and whether or not you'll be using plug ins.

Adobe's tight integration is it's chief claim to fame at the moment. There are some plug ins that work with it, too, and you can span projects across software. Sharing projects with platforms is easy (again - for a while they abandoned Mac platforms due to a silliness that was due to a corporate ego thing). It comes at price. Adobe's software is a tad clumsy. Most folks who use it really need training (I like that:)) , but sometimes folks think they are advanced users of Photoshop or Premiere and when I'm contracted by their supervisor to give "advanced" training, it's pretty evident that I need to spin up a bit just to do "intermediate" training.

The point here is, you can slug it out and get your project done - people do it all the time without so much as a DVD of "show and tell", but a real live class will make anyone a better editor for sure.

Vegas, for me anyway, takes a slightly off-key approach to editing interface that takes a smidgen of getting use to, but when you do, it's a pretty easy to use. After you get accustom to the paradigm shift, it's easy to edit your show quickly. Sharing with Macs can be done, but that isn't why you buy Vegas.

Both NLEs are (or in the case of CS4 will be) available for download trials and I would encourage you to have a go at both of them. If you choose Premiere, I would also suggest that you sign up for a course for a few days so you can really get the benefit of the program. It will shave weeks off your edit or better said, make your edit significantly better.

Good luck either way.

My best.
 
Thanks to everyone.

I'm actually already proficient with both Vegas 7 and PPro 1.5, and own both. So I'm aware of the strengths and weaknesses of each program, but was wondering specifically whether CS4 or Vegas 8 - two programs I've never used - would be a better match for the workflow I describe in my original post.

The biggest question that remains for me is #3. Whether to buy one of the Cineform codecs. I've heard so many times that it's a really robust codec that stands up well to CC much better than native m2t.

So, is it true, as PerroneFord states, that flipping the image within Vegas or CS4 will not harm or render the footage in any way? I would love some further corroboration of this.

And if this be true, then the only justification to buy Cineform is for its reputedly superior performance in CC. I will want to do fairly significant CC, either in Vegas, CS4, or After Effects (and btw, are any of these clearly the best for CC?). So, do I need Cineform, in order to best protect the quality of my footage throughout post?

And: Adobe just informed me that Adobe Video Collection is in fact NOT eligible for the upgrade to CS4 Production Suite for 599. I can still get PPro CS4 for 299, but the entire suite would actually cost me 1100. Major suckage. So right now, I am sharply leaning toward Vegas 8 - which I can get as an upgrade for 150 from B&H along with DVDA, meaning I will be able to author BluRay discs. This would also allow me to buy NeoHDV instead of AspectHD, which is exactly twice as expensive.
 
DVD Architect now supports Blu-Ray authoring, so I think you can make blu-ray disc like you would with regular sd dvd, with menus and all. and Vegas 8.1 now supports 64bit.
 
Metrolens said:
So, is it true, as PerroneFord states, that flipping the image within Vegas or CS4 will not harm or render the footage in any way? I would love some further corroboration of this.
Click to expand...


I don't have premier installed any more, but I invite you to do this yourself. Take some finished video and drop it on the timeline in Vegas. Then do a flip in pan and crop. Does it show that it needs to render to play out? If not, there is no calculation happening and thus no signal degradation.
 
JONJON said:
DVD Architect now supports Blu-Ray authoring, so I think you can make blu-ray disc like you would with regular sd dvd, with menus and all. and Vegas 8.1 now supports 64bit.
Click to expand...

Yes, I have heard this about DVDA 5.

And I just learned that Vegas 7 will in fact render a Blu-Print Mpeg file, either 60i or 24p flavors. So, actually, maybe I don't even need to upgrade my NLE at this time? I'd still need a Blu-Ray capable DVD authoring program, of course...

Has anyone successfully burned a Blu-Ray DVD from a Blu-Print file rendered from Vegas 7?
 
PerroneFord said:
I don't have premier installed any more, but I invite you to do this yourself. Take some finished video and drop it on the timeline in Vegas. Then do a flip in pan and crop. Does it show that it needs to render to play out? If not, there is no calculation happening and thus no signal degradation.
Click to expand...

I am unable to do this with HDV footage as I don't have any yet. But with SD footage, the answer is a resounding no; Vegas 7 requires no rendering to flip. So the same would hold true for HDV/Cineform files, I presume?

EDIT:
Actually when I flip SD footage in Vegas 7, there's no rendering required, but I notice playback is not as smooth, stuttering slightly, compared with the same unflipped footage. Is this something to be concerned about?
 
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I'm in nearly the same situation as you. I just shot a feature with the xha1 at 24f. I'm using Vegas 8.0 pro to edit, and everything is going smoothly now that the latest update has come out. My computer also sounds almost exactly like yours. q6600, 4gb RAM, 7300gt.

The audio side of Vegas works very well, but I'm still learning it. I think my m2t files are more like 13GB/hour.

B&H has the vegas 8 upgrade for only $150. You can also buy the CD only version for $130. That's what I did. I like using Vegas, but I'd say if you're going to be using After Effects or anything like that, it's certainly going to be easier with Adobe.
 
Metrolens said:
Thanks to everyone.

I'm actually already proficient with both Vegas 7 and PPro 1.5, and own both. So I'm aware of the strengths and weaknesses of each program, but was wondering specifically whether CS4 or Vegas 8 - two programs I've never used - would be a better match for the workflow I describe in my original post.

The biggest question that remains for me is #3. Whether to buy one of the Cineform codecs. I've heard so many times that it's a really robust codec that stands up well to CC much better than native m2t.
Click to expand...

Hi,

So, really, #3 was the only question you had?

Well, you don't need the CODEC. It does make rendering faster, and you can download a 15-day trial and see if you like it.
 
MikeGunter said:
Hi,

So, really, #3 was the only question you had?
Click to expand...

Well, I was able to answer #4 for myself, and wanted to share the results with the community (also to find out if my calculation was borne out in the real world).

#2 was addressed early on by Daygola.

#1 was a more general question - given the workflow I described, if Vegas 8 or CS4 posed any clear advantages or pitfalls. As stated in my OP I already own and use both PPro 1.5 and Vegas 7, so I wasn't really asking "which one will I like better?" But rather, is anyone aware of any clear advantages/limitations to either Vegas 8 or PPro CS4 that I should take into account?

Anyway. Not trying to be snarky - Mike I definitely appreciate your posting as well as everyone else here.
 
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