Advice Requested on Sound Setup

John Froton

John Froton

Well-known member
Hi all,

I have an AKG Blue Line mic w/CK93 hypercardioid cap going into a MIXPRE and the MIXPRE outputs to an HVX200 XLR input. I monitor from the RCA outputs of the camcorder from the tape return input on the MIXPRE.

I set the 0db tone from the MIXPRE to about -15db in the camcorder and turned off the limiter in the camcorder as well.

From the MIXPRE I can monitor both from the camcorder's RCA outs and direct from the MIXPRE. The sound from the MIXPRE is much louder than the sound from the camcorder. Is this normal?

Also I try to keep the signal level of dialog at an average of -12db to -6db at the camcorder's meters. This seems to result in the MIXPRE's levels going above +4db to +8db occasionally. Is this okay?

I set both channels in the HVX to mic input 2 so I am getting mono sound from the mic on both left and right channels. Is this typically done?

Thanks for any advice :)
 
I had an argument with SD about the metering, but I digress. THe mixPre clips at something like +24 dBu (that's well above the highest level shown on the meters) so +8 is no problem and might be a bit low.
Also you can trim the return level from the camera on the MixPre.
 
John,

Each line represents 2dbfs so you tone 0dbu to -20 or -12dbfs. I know what Oleg is going to say. Therefore, -15 is not possible. It seems you are at -16dbfs. Adjust the tape return levels clockwise on the mixpre to turn up the headphone gain.

the hvx does not have an internal control for the rca outputs only through the headphone amp.

if you are sending right and left out of the mix pre, why dont you record two channel on the hvx? switch the setting so you record to both and do split tracks when needed even if you are just using a boom. I was never a believer when setting tone that one channel a few db below another. use your ears and rely more on that than the meters. I'd rather have 2 equal tracks for editorial and rely on my mixing skills and use your limiters when needed. If you are monitoring the return and it sounds good, then you are fiine. -12dbfs with peaks to -6dbfs is perfect when recording to that camera for dialogue.

I find that on SD mixers compared to the hvx's meters, does not match.

Hope this helps and am sure others will chime in
 
Dean,

Thanks for the info. I think I am set at -16 in the camcorder.

Instead of sending right and left out of the mixpre and using two cables from the mixpre to the camcorder, I am using one cable and switching both channels in the camcorder to the input signal. I figure it will yield the same result without having to use an extra cable.
 
the maximum what the mix pre shows is 18 dbu if iam not mistake and for clipping much furder
so O dbu on its meter reference with to -20 on the camera give you quit allot of headroom
, picks of the dialog on +6-10is what are you looking for , that will give you about -14--10dbfs on camera , dial the limiter on mix pre for +14,+16 dbu ( check with camera meters as you will not able to see it actually on sd ones)
the line level from the camera comes at -10 dbv ( 10 db lower then what you send) , so if the mix pre dont have enough gain on it return sirquet it would be lower in you headphones , by the way , the 442 has the same problem and you need +4dbm signal to match the headphones , in 302 sd rises the gain in return amp so you actually can adjust the levels so it will be equal to its output .
always better use the rca returns if you actually work with camera return ( as me) then to 5c headphone ampl these cameras have .
not a problem if you know it .
 
I just came back from locationsound where I picked up a Mix Pre...

There I learned that I'd have to spend about $200 to get a 25ft. snake to be able to have a one-wire solution for the 2 XLRs and the Tape Return feed back to the mixer... a 50ft. snake extension is about $120... Also they make custom wires so I could have a snake with RCA males on the camera end of the wire made, but holy smokes! That would make it 680 + 200 + 120 = 1000 only 100 shy of a 302!
I have three XLRs, a 15ft., a 30ft. and a 50ft. so for not, to save some serious money I ordered a 49ft. RCA to 3.5mm for $20... should I keep the wires separate or should I do something where my 50 ft. XLR and the 49 ft. Tape Return cable are joint together?
Taping them might make them hard to roll but I've seen sound and camera guys with rolls of cables taped together by 1' tape every 2" or so...
 
Yes, I suck af finding spesific stuff like this on Ebay cause I'm not used to the names yet... hard to search, and to pick it out too.
I'll bet $30 that it goes for $120-135... :(

You never know though! :thumbsup:
 
since you are on desert island , no one will see how you work:-)
good snake take about an hour and ahalf to make , add connectors ,cables and you end with 120us
all therest above is that someone need make money :-)
 
USLatin,

If you are going to be at the camera recording and it is you that will be monitoring the sound (as in my case most of the time) then forget about the snake and monitor straight from the camcorder, hooking your headphones to the RCA outputs using a Y cable. True that you won't be monitoring at the MIXPRE but most importantly, you will be monitoring the final sound being recorded.

My typical setup is mic to mixpre (XLR cable), mixpre to camcorder (XLR cable) and camcorder to headphones (2 RCA to Phono jack Y cable). I have tried monitoring from the mixpre by plugging the Y cable into the mixpre using a mini jack adaptor, and then plugging the headphones into the mixpre. The cables are short though and require me to be at the camcorder. If I wanted to monitor sound away from the camcorder, I would be out of luck right now and would need more cables or a good snake.

Use the snake cable if you want a dedicated soundman to be able to monitor at the MIXPRE where the soundman will be away from camera (where the soundman and the camera operator are two different people). In my case, I am checking sound at the camera, so I wil just keep monitoring solely from the camera ouputs. It means much less cables needing to run long lengths until needed when a seperate soundman comes into the picture.

...which, by the way, if you are doing a feature and can afford it, using a seperate soundman is a really good idea :)

If a soundman can focus soley on sound and DP on setting the scene and camera operator on the camera ..etc, then results tend to be much better with less room for error and quality control mistakes.
 
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Yes, I am trying to build a package (can't wait to be f'ing done with the purchases!) and I am going for versatility. I want to be able to do as much as possible with what we can spend and make purchases that will work with me in the future. I want to build a cinema-type package, aimed at 2 sound people (mixer and boom op) and also all of the rest of the crew... That's why I almost bought the MM-1, because it would have been the cheapest way to outfit the boom op with headphones and gain control. Then it was pointed out to me that the gain was steps not a continuously variable potentiometer (how 'bout them apples! :thumbsup: ) and that there was no level meter... also that there was a $680 alternative (up from $360) that had all of that and an extra line... so I bit the bullet on the lighting budget and got what I thought might be more versatile for the months to come. Also, apparently, you can "add" the two channels of the MixPre to a 302 or a 442 giving you 5 or 6 when I upgrade... what kills me is that I very well might be asking one of you guys to work for me in the bigger projects that will require/disserve/justify complex sound setups like these, and it I was spending the $2500 + on a 442 and $1500 for a basic recorder... and that would be a "basic setup" compared to what some of you guys already have invested into.

Thank you John for explaining to me how to set my levels on the MixPre and HVX in simpler terms!
 
You are welcome USLatin. Others on this thread deserve the credit.

USLatin and I are both going to try and experiment to find the best setting for preamp level in the HVX in relation to driving the preamp levels with the mixpre.

We understand that 0db in the mixpre = -20db in the HVX and that making the signal a little hotter (up to -12db) in the HVX is sometimes preferred.

What we do not know, as of yet, is whether or not lowering the preamps in the HVX and boosting the preamps in the mixpre will result in a cleaner signal.

Originally, we had thought that the preamps in the HVX were bypassed by switching to line level input but it does not make sense that the preamps are bypassed as we can still raise and lower the signal coming in at line level by adjusting the camera's dials.

Does anyone have any idea whether we should spend time experimenting with the HVX levels or should we just set them somewhere between -20db and -12db in relation to the 0db tone coming from the mixpre?

The bottom line for us is to get the settings (cleanest signal, best level volume and dynamic range compromise) as a starting point and then use the mixpre controls to drive the levels during live recording.

Edit- Please feel free to straighten me out if my understanding of preamps or anything else is not correct. I am not as experienced as most who post in the audio forum :)
 
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Oleg always says to set the tone at -20. He has a lot of experience.

I have tried -12 and that works fine too. On my 302 with the 0db tone set on the HVX to -12, the orange led will light up just before peaking, giving you more information to look at than if you set 0db at 0 on the HVX.

I really doubt that you would notice any difference in the quality of the signal either way (-20 or -12) since the SD are so darn nice and quiet anyway.
 
the -20 is precoution have enouth headroom for unexpected .
you will not see any drastical change with 12 or 20 db , but you can find yoiurself overloading the input stage before your mixer chunks .
wht never happense to me :-)
the -12 reference is usially comes from music recording when you record already compressed signal with very low dynamic range , not from ruff dialog recording when you have 20 db of dynamics in conversation .
i think that panasonic and fostex pd 4 with it internal tone generator in -12 dbfs where are the only stuipid to place it as a mark .

but, what ever works for you .
 
Ok, so if I understand the Audio dial on the back of the HVX should be turned till the tone from the MixPre reads as -20 dB on the camera's level meter.
Also, -20dB is Oleg's dynamic-range-maximizing recommended setting.
And lastly -12dB is only for situations when we know the sound to be captured will be consistently low enough so that there is no possibility that it could get clipped and we want to get a stronger signal?

Thank you Oleg, John and Saneproductions!
 
thats not oleg setting , thats about 99% of the industry setting , i just follow what people do without thinking :-)
 
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