Advice on mic'ing this scene

thisisapocalypse

thisisapocalypse

Well-known member
Hi everyone! I'm going to be shooting my first feature this January, and while most of the scenes are fairly straightforward from an audio perspective, I am still relatively new to sound, and so I'm trying to plan my attack on this particular scene.

This film is essentially all dialogue driven, and we've got a tight schedule, so I want to get the very best audio I can, and hopefully not have to re-shoot (duh, I'm sure pretty much everyone wants the same thing).

In this scene, for the most part, the talent will not be speaking at the same time, but there will be moments where the talents' lines will overlap, so I am trying to cover all my bases here.

I've got a diagram below showing my plan of attack.

There will be a number of scenes that take place at a desk in an office style environment. On one side of the desk, there is Talent A and Talent B sitting next to each other. There will be a number of shots where it's just Talent A and Talent B.

In some of the scenes, there will be a third person on the opposite side of the desk, Talent C. Nearly all the shots will be of either Talent A&B, or of Talent C (reaction shots, cutaways, etc.), there will not be many where one could see all the talent in one shot.

For microphones, I have the following.

1 x Oktava MK 012 w/Hypercardiod Module
1 x Rode NTG-3
1 x Rode Videomic (on camera)
1 x X/Y Microphones built into Zoom H4N

I will be recording into the Zoom H4N.

My plan is to use two mic/boom stands.

On one stand, I'll be placing the H4N with its mics downward above Talent A&B, slightly in front of them. This is really more of a backup track than anything, but from what I understand, mic'ing this way could achieve some nice stereo imagery/ambience, and it may be useful in post production, but it is not considered primary audio.

On the other stand (as these shots will not have the Talent A/B or C moving much at all), I would be placing the Oktava w/Hypercardiod capsule above and in between Talent A&B. From what I understand, this pattern should be good for capturing good, solid audio, with a minimum of room reflection, etc., and should work well with Talent A&B since they will be close together. This is what I'd regard as the master track of audio for Talent A&B.

I am planning on having the boom operator using the Rode NTG-3 shotgun and aiming it towards Talent A, B, and C, during their speaking parts. Depending on which tracks sound better once recorded (from the Oktava and the Rode), and depending on the scene shot/lines, etc., we may intercut audio from the NTG-3.

I will have a Rode Videomic mounted on the camera (GH1) to override the built in mics of the GH1, so that we will have at least a semi-decent audio track in-camera that we can use as a scratch/synch track. It will always be aimed at whatever talent is on screen.

I'm hoping, with this setup, to get good solid audio in these scenes. The Talent will be speaking in an interview-style format. My goal is to have enough good audio that if there are phase issues on one mic, we'll get good audio from another, and be able to intercut when necessary and hopefully eliminate the need for ADR.

Would a setup like I've described make good sense for the scene I'm talking about here? We do not have lavaliers and we will be using a single Zoom H4N recorder, so we are limited to these 4-channels of audio on the Zoom, and the one channel on the GH1 camera. It's a pretty low budget project, and as it is really a dialogue-driven film, it's really important to me to get the audio right. If I absolutely must go lavaliers and add an outboard mixer, etc., it may be possible to do that, but if it can be accomplished as I've described above, or with minor changes (i.e., not buying 3 lavs and a mixer), that would be ideal.

Diagram of how I'm planning to place the mics:

1256786312.jpg


Thanks everyone!
 
The sound difference between the Oktava and the NTG-3 will be very noticeable, especially indoors, and will be very difficult to match to each other in audio post.

Get a mixer like the Sound Devices MixPre (or even the MM-1). Put the Oktava on the end of a boom pole, plug it into the mixer and the mixer into the H4n. Hire a competent boom-op to swing the boom. As much as you say the talent will not be moving a competent boom-op will capture much better sound than a mic in a static position.
 
Thanks Bob, I was wondering if maybe I was making this more complicated than it needed to be. Would it still be worthwhile to record the X/Y mics on the Zoom in your opinion? I figure since I have them, I might as well use them in case of catastrophic failure.
 
I do see a lot of folks talk about the Sound Devices gear. Thus far I've found the Zoom H4N pre-amps to be quite good, but it seems that a lot of folks think it's a good idea to bypass the pre-amps in it. My guess is that the mix-pre/mm1 probably have a much better headphone output than the H4N...are the pre-amps in the SD gear really night and day over what is usually built in to these digital recorders? It certainly looks like, from a usability standpoint, the Sound Devices stuff would be much easier to adjust on the fly when necessary.
 
thisisapocalypse said:
Thanks Bob, I was wondering if maybe I was making this more complicated than it needed to be. Would it still be worthwhile to record the X/Y mics on the Zoom in your opinion? I figure since I have them, I might as well use them in case of catastrophic failure.
Click to expand...

As I said, use the Zoom as the recorder and bypass the pres by using a quality mixer. If you don't have the cabbage for a quality mixer plug the mic(s) directly into the H4n.

Your back-up is the on-camera mic.
 
unclebob6958 said:
As I said, use the Zoom as the recorder and bypass the pres by using a quality mixer. If you don't have the cabbage for a quality mixer plug the mic(s) directly into the H4n.

Your back-up is the on-camera mic.
Click to expand...

Thanks much, I think I'm going to start looking for a good pre/mixer. I'm starting to wonder if I'm going to need the NTG-3 for this shoot at all, I have exterior shots for this film, to be sure, but not a ton of them, and all of them will have two people talking. How well do hyper-cardiods perform outdoors on a boom?

I guess I'm wondering if I should sell the NTG-3 and use the cash to buy a Sound Devices Mix-Pre or MM1 for this project...if the Oktava can perform well in outdoor environments with either the hypercardiod capsule, or maybe I can add one of the regular cardiod capsules for the Oktava to my kit, would that work well for outdoors?

One last question. Is there a preferred capsule type for room tone? I haven't heard much discussion on this, so I'm curious. Do Omnis work well for this? Since I've got the Oktava I'm wondering if I should just go ahead and get both additional capsules and use it for most of this project with the appropriate capsule for the scene.
 
thisisapocalypse said:
One last question. Is there a preferred capsule type for room tone? I haven't heard much discussion on this, so I'm curious. Do Omnis work well for this?
Click to expand...

The whole point of room tone is to match the same background noise as
when you were shooting your takes.
You want to use the same mic, and at the same volume it was during the take.
Don't raise the volume thinking you want to get it louder to tape.

Example is if 1 person has 2 lines, and between the 2 lines you hear a door slam.
In your edit program remove the door slam, which would leave a gap in your timeline. Use the roomtone
to fill the gap (with proper cross fades, or adjustments to make the transitions seamless)

As far as you other questions..
how to cover the shot-
Only worry about the dialog that is "on" camera. If you're shooting A & B ignore C.
If you're shooting C, ignore A&B.
If you see on 3 on the wide shot whoever is swinging for you needs to learn the lines and swing the best they can between all 3.

Avoid overlaps as a director on the coverage shots. They will make your life very difficult in post.
(yes some directors these days don't care about overlaps, but the post team will struggle and it seems as if this is above the level your playing at currently so just avoid it)

As far as a Hyper doing well outdoors. Nada. Sometimes you'll be fine with it, but overall you're going to want to use a shotgun outdoors.
 
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Rippie said:
The whole point of room tone is to match the same background noise as
when you were shooting your takes.
You want to use the same mic, and at the same volume it was during the take.
Don't raise the volume thinking you want to get it louder to tape.

Example is if 1 person has 2 lines, and between the 2 lines you hear a door slam.
In your edit program remove the door slam, which would leave a gap in your timeline. Use the roomtone
to fill the gap (with proper cross fades, or adjustments to make the transitions seamless)
Click to expand...

Makes perfect sense, I appreciate you all bearing with me on this, I have worked on a number of shorts, but always as DP, so I am still somewhat new to sound aquisition, you all are helping me a ton.

Perhaps my question was meant towards capturing nat-sound/foley.

For example, I may be shooting a scene on a street and I want to record the sounds of cars driving in the background, sound effects, etc. that I would use to build the layers of background audio. Is it best in these situations to use the same mic as you are using for talent dialogue for consistent sound character/color?
 
thisisapocalypse said:
Makes perfect sense, I appreciate you all bearing with me on this, I have worked on a number of shorts, but always as DP, so I am still somewhat new to sound aquisition, you all are helping me a ton.

Perhaps my question was meant towards capturing nat-sound/foley.

For example, I may be shooting a scene on a street and I want to record the sounds of cars driving in the background, sound effects, etc. that I would use to build the layers of background audio. Is it best in these situations to use the same mic as you are using for talent dialogue for consistent sound character/color?
Click to expand...
First off dont worry about fx recording during the shoot, it will only slow you down.
As far as mic's to do that..you're not limited to the same by any means. Use whatever works to capture the sounds you wish to capture.
 
Foley is a "live" performance of footsteps, punches, clothing rustle, body falls, etc. while watching the visuals. It is meant to support or replace what was captured on the set. Foley is a compete art form unto itself.

When capturing room tones shut off all of the lights, the camera, etc. and empty the set of all personnel with the exception of the boom op and the PSM who know enough to keep silent. I can't tell you how many times I've been given room tones that contain equipment hums & buzzes, shuffling feet, heavy breathing and many other kinds of extraneous sounds. One minute is enough in a completely "silent" location but for a more active area several minutes should be captured.

After capturing the room tone you should capture dialog wilds. Have the talent perform the dialog in front of the mic in the same situation as above.

You may want to check out my blog:

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendId=111888913
 
I disagree with this.
in my opinion you SHOULD keep the set exactly as it was during the take.
So edits can be made smoothly..
if post is able to remove the hums overall..that includes the room tone..
but if they cant..you're stuck with roomtone that doesnt match.


If you're talking about ambiences rather than room tone, then thats a totally different situation.


unclebob6958 said:
Foley is a "live" performance of footsteps, punches, clothing rustle, body falls, etc. while watching the visuals. It is meant to support or replace what was captured on the set. Foley is a compete art form unto itself.

When capturing room tones shut off all of the lights, the camera, etc. and empty the set of all personnel with the exception of the boom op and the PSM who know enough to keep silent. I can't tell you how many times I've been given room tones that contain equipment hums & buzzes, shuffling feet, heavy breathing and many other kinds of extraneous sounds. One minute is enough in a completely "silent" location but for a more active area several minutes should be captured.

After capturing the room tone you should capture dialog wilds. Have the talent perform the dialog in front of the mic in the same situation as above.

You may want to check out my blog:

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendId=111888913
Click to expand...
 
Hi Thisisapocalypse,

I agree that you are overcomplicating the scene. Generally speaking, the more experience we get, the fewer mics we use, and the better it sounds. Also, if positioned properly, there should be no problem cutting between the Octavia and the NTG-3.

By your desciption and diagram, it looks like there is only one camera, which simplifies things a lot. If I was planning for this scene, and wanted to cover my bases (and without having any wireless mics available), I would use the NTG-3 as my primary boom for camera perspective (probably just above the frame line over the person talking). If the talent are spread too far away from each other to cue to all three reliable with a single boom, then I might position a second boom (Octavia) over "actor C" (shotgun for the further away actors, supercardioid for the closer actor).

If you want to use the Zoom H4 recorder, I suggest using it to double-system record your mix plus, possibly, one of the booms isolated on the second track. I would not go to the trouble of hanging the Zoom recorder over the talent, which would very likely be more problematic than it would be beneficial.

Glen Trew
 
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Rippie said:
I disagree with this. In my opinion you SHOULD keep the set exactly as it was during the take. So edits can be made smoothly..
Click to expand...

You are entitled to your opinion. I am curious as to how many audio post projects you have done. I have done six features and over 100 shorts - which does not include my subcontractor work on other projects - and I much prefer clean room tones without any of the extraneous noise from lights, etc. The noises from equipment on the set is usually not noticeable when the talent is speaking, and what little there is I can usually remove with various NR programs and EQ. Having to remove hums and buzzes from the room tones is one more step I prefer to avoid. Most of my peers tend to agree.
 
unclebob6958 said:
You are entitled to your opinion. I am curious as to how many audio post projects you have done. I have done six features and over 100 shorts - which does not include my subcontractor work on other projects - and I much prefer clean room tones without any of the extraneous noise from lights, etc. The noises from equipment on the set is usually not noticeable when the talent is speaking, and what little there is I can usually remove with various NR programs and EQ. Having to remove hums and buzzes from the room tones is one more step I prefer to avoid. Most of my peers tend to agree.
Click to expand...

Definitely makes sense to me, of course, it would be easy enough for me to do both, take some room sound once the talent is gone, set as it is when they leave with everything setup, then unplug everything and take some more. :engel017:
 
If a room is completely quiet, then there is no need to get room tone (also sometimes called "ambience" or "world tone" or "air"). The reason for getting room tone is to match the ambience that was present while recording in sync with the camera. The room tone recording is then used to add gaps in the dialog and to use under ADR. If the room tone recording is different from the sync recording because all of the ambient noise was stopped (lights, air-conditioner, refrigerator, etc.), what's the use of getting room tone?

Regarding the suggestion of getting two room tones -- one with lights and the other without -- good luck with that. It is often very difficult to stop a crew long enough to get a few seconds of room tone at all, much less holding up the show for a second version of the same room. The best practice is to let the AD know before the last take of a scene that you need room tone, then remind them immediately after they decide to move on, change nothing, and press the red button. You have to be fast, or you will lose the moment.

Glen Trew
 
Glen Trew said:
If a room is completely quiet, then there is no need to get room tone (also sometimes called "ambience" or "world tone" or "air"). The reason for getting room tone is to match the ambience that was present while recording in sync with the camera. The room tone recording is then used to add gaps in the dialog and to use under ADR. If the room tone recording is different from the sync recording because all of the ambient noise was stopped (lights, air-conditioner, refrigerator, etc.), what's the use of getting room tone?

Regarding the suggestion of getting two room tones -- one with lights and the other without -- good luck with that. It is often very difficult to stop a crew long enough to get a few seconds of room tone at all, much less holding up the show for a second version of the same room. The best practice is to let the AD know before the last take of a scene that you need room tone, then remind them immediately after they decide to move on, change nothing, and press the red button. You have to be fast, or you will lose the moment.

Glen Trew
Click to expand...

Thanks Glen. The "good" news is that the film crew for this is going to be very, very small, it's absolutely micro budget, I don't think there will be more than 3 people, including myself as far as the crew goes...it's going to be an intense shoot, but I won't have lots of people to deal with...good and bad...so I'm trying to find ways to keep things as simple as possible due to the small crew (hence my original idea of using a boom stand) but that setup was overly complicated, and I'm feeling much better about it having read UncleBob's suggestions.
 
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