Advice on first diffusion purchases...

L

leeburnett

Active member
Hello,

I just purchased my first set of lighting - a photon beard redhead tungsten set. I nearly went with Kino / LED setup, but decided that I really wanted to start experimenting with diffusion, gels, bouncing etc.

Now I've got them I want to start getting some good diffusion, ND and colour gels but want some advice on a couple of things.

I don't really want to buy 3 c-stands and diffusion frames, because of cost and weight. Can you advise on some other techniques to set up and hold the diffusion that isn't just a bodge job.

Also, where in the UK do you purchase your diff, ND and CTB?

What would be your recommended starting point? My initial thought is to get some 216, some Sixteenth and maybe some grid cloth. Also some full ctb and half ctb. Would you recommend others that would speed up my learning?

Would you recommend softboxes, or shall I just skip that and go straight to diffusion?

Would you say that buying individual sheets is silly? I'm a bit confused about how long realistically these sorts of material can last. entire rolls seem expensive?

I know that these questions are pretty basic and I can answer them myself, but I wouldn't mind knowing other people's thoughts on it first.
Thanks
 
I'd start with either some Light Grid and Half Soft Frost, or 216 and 250. So that you have both a denser and lighter material available. Don't waste money on ND gels, if you don't have the money for c-stands, you don't have the means for using ND on windows - the wastage levels are immense doing that, and the costs add up quickly.
 
Thanks guys.

Grug, by ND gels, I meant for NDing my lights for fill (they are not dimmable) - although I guess I could just factor in the stop loss from grid cloth. I could also just bounce to reduce power.

I have used the LEE video and the app which is brilliant to start learning.

I do have the money to get a C-stand or two, and the more I read the more I realise I probably should. Was just curious if there's any ingenious ways people get by without them that I can use until I buy them.

My initial thought is to buy a roll of 250, and a roll of some sort of grid cloth, and a couple CTB's. With 2 c-stands, I should be set for a lot of situations, right?
 
Ah, gotcha. I'd strongly recommend getting metal scrims for your redheads over ND gel - faster, less fuss, and I generally find it pretty rare that I'd want to reduce the output of an 800w redhead and not be softening the light at the same time anyway. So you may find that just having a layer or two of dense diffusion over the light gives you what you want in most situations.

Get the c-stands. They're an industry standard for a reason - they're simple, reliable, built to last, and designed for hold grip gear up.

Two c-stands (I'd get sliding leg ones for starters) with arms and grip heads, is certainly a good place to start.
 
Far and away the most common diffusions used directly on tungsten lights are 216, 250, and Opal. That said, it's really not that common to clip them right onto the barn doors of a light. It's gonna slow down the light a lot more than it will diffuse it. You want to effectively enlarge the source for softer light, so soft boxes and frames are the way to go. Softboxes are a bit easier to deal with since you have a self contained fixture, siders / topper / bottomer, and diffusion. When you go to diffuse a light with a 4x frame, you could be looking at 3-5 more bits of lighting control, each having its own stand to support it, plus the additional manpower to move them every time the light has to move. The drawback with soft boxes is that they're generally not as large as a 4x frame, I don't think it's physically possible to put a medium Chimera on a redhead and not have it cause the light to tilt down.

Also, who told you that your lights are not dimmable? That has no basis in fact. You should still have a scrim set for each light though. For open face lights like those, a single and two doubles will do you fine, half scrims on an open face light aren't nearly as effective as they are on fresnels.
 
It is hard to work with red and not either bodge or get some nice tidy diffusion like matthews road rags and proper grip to support them

The stuff you see on movie sets has been chosen over time because it works and is versatile.

personally I dont like soft boxes because..

They can be hard to gel
They are not that big a source.. or they become hard to manoeuvre

A 36in pop out lastolight and stand for same is a good basic diffusion IMO

Gel..
CTB full and half, and some form of frost

The frost can be clipped onto the bardoors but is a bit of a compromise.

S
 
Thanks guys.

I guess the reason I don't want to go down the softbox route is because I won't be learning what I want to learn. I bought redheads to learn how to bounce, diffuse light and start understanding how light moves.

After reading all of this I'll get 2 c-stands. What's the least I should be looking for? There seems to be a wide variety in price and I don't want to get some crappy knock-off.

Then I'll probably just have the diff on a roll (250, 216 and light grid) that I can just pull down as far as I want, and light through that?

Further down the line I'll get some diff frames and flags etc etc.

Does that sound like a sound plan?
 
leeburnett said:
Thanks guys.

I guess the reason I don't want to go down the softbox route is because I won't be learning what I want to learn. I bought redheads to learn how to bounce, diffuse light and start understanding how light moves.

After reading all of this I'll get 2 c-stands. What's the least I should be looking for? There seems to be a wide variety in price and I don't want to get some crappy knock-off.

Then I'll probably just have the diff on a roll (250, 216 and light grid) that I can just pull down as far as I want, and light through that?

Further down the line I'll get some diff frames and flags etc etc.

Does that sound like a sound plan?
Click to expand...


The B&H brand IMPACT is perfectly good stuff. It's made by KUPO.
I use all KUPO because I feel the Grip Heads grip better than Matthews, I like the handles better, and their black finish has been really solid - doesn't flake off.
Just make sure you get some 40-inch arms! The standard 20-inch arms are OK...but more than half the time I was wishing I had a longer reach so I got rid of ALL my 20-inch arms and replaced them with the 40's.
I have never had any instance of the longer arm getting too much in the way that it couldn't be used.
That's just me though.

I had some silver ones, and YEAH when they eventually get banged up in the future the black ones will show scuffs more - but GLARE... SO many times I had a grip or a PA hanging black fabric or gaff-taping up a silver stand because it was reflecting glare off of it.
I feel there really are a TON of possible instances where light stands and C-Stands are being hidden in plain sight of the camera, and the black stands have made that much less of a problem.
 
Look into Westcott Scrim Jim 4x4 frames if portability is a priority. You'll have to baby those diffusion rolls if you don't have any dedicated 4x4 frames/transport and storage system.

The frame sections break down and fit into their own bag, same with the diffusion fabric. DPs expect 250/216/xxx diffusion but if you're not expected to provide this gear then it will work fine.

The downside to the scrim jim set up is they're slower to set up compared with 4x4 knife blade frames that have permanent diffusion attached. Frame assembly and attaching the fabric with velcro isn't necessarily slow but will still take more time to set up. Also, they're flimsy for outdoor work, some people dislike the diffusion it provides, and some of the fabrics go yellow over time (may not be a problem for you).

However I recommend it as a great starting point, which will leave you with a portable solution to fall back on after you collect dedicated frames/flags etc.
 
I'd probably suggest a 6x6' or 8x8' light grid, that's what I use for my more general purpose diffusion. You can hang it off an arm or tie it between stands or put it on a frame and it's easy to fold it or waste it if you want to make it superb soft or just smaller, whereas a roll of gel will always be 4' wide only or you'll go through the whole thing cutting it up and you'll be paying for a lot of length that you never use if you only roll it out off an arm. Cloth also takes folding and packing better and will hold up in a breeze, gel has to be rolled and will kill your sound guy if there's any wind.

Otherwise it's definitely nice to have 2-4' scraps of 216,250 etc around which are usually easy to accumulate from used job expendables. And maybe get variety pack of diffusions to see what you like for taking the edge off your open face lights when using them hard/direct.
 
nyvz said:
I'd probably suggest a 6x6' or 8x8' light grid, that's what I use for my more general purpose diffusion. You can hang it off an arm or tie it between stands or put it on a frame and it's easy to fold it or waste it if you want to make it superb soft or just smaller, whereas a roll of gel will always be 4' wide only or you'll go through the whole thing cutting it up and you'll be paying for a lot of length that you never use if you only roll it out off an arm. Cloth also takes folding and packing better and will hold up in a breeze, gel has to be rolled and will kill your sound guy if there's any wind.

Otherwise it's definitely nice to have 2-4' scraps of 216,250 etc around which are usually easy to accumulate from used job expendables. And maybe get variety pack of diffusions to see what you like for taking the edge off your open face lights when using them hard/direct.
Click to expand...

Very good points here --^
 
Lastolite Skylite are good pop up diffusion frames. I have the 2m x 1m. Would like the 1x1m as well

can be mounted on regular heavy duty light stands instead of c stands.
 
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