Advice for outdoor night music video?

F

firehawk

Veteran
Hi. Got a shoot coming up that is a low budget music video to take place on a baseball field at night.
Idea is to have the artist on camera with a couple teammembers at a time. And one group shot of about 16 people.
Wanting to try to use fog machines for some of the shots lit by RGB lights behind the people.

Looking for ideas of things to try.
And advice for what to do with what I have. Wondering if I need to pick up a bigger fog machine. Outdoor can be tricky depending on wind.

Lights:
Luxli Timpani RGB.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1353086-REG/luxli_timpani_1x1_1x1_rgb_studio_light.html

Astra 6X (2)
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1339832-REG/litepanels_935_1023_astra_6x_1x1_bi_color.html

Blizzard PAR (2)
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...ex_unplugged_six_6_watt_rgbaw_uv_battery.html

DJ light
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1271037-REG/american_dj_stinger_gobo.html

Light Wand
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1299341-REG/yongnuo_yn360_handheld_led_video_light.html

And a bunch of Dracast LED bicolor lights that can run on batteries if needed

Fog machine
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...ing_turbo_fog_1000_1001_watt_fog_machine.html
But I'm considering something like this because it's rated at 4X the output (40,000cfm)
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1434196-REG/american_dj_fog_fury_jett_pro.html
 
Those disco foggers have very low output, poor reach and crazy unpredictability outside in anything but still air, and air is NEVER still outside. You need to be hiring machines of the event type - the ones we have more than others here in the UK are GEM Gladiators. You fit tubing too the front and duct it to where you need them to be - they'll do fog or low fog - BUT - they need a 32A supply and are notoriously unreliable. The beam type lights might work for you, but the washes are horrible with smoke, fog and haze, because all they do is light up and wreck the picture. Beams in smoke look wonderful but outside the weather changes everything. It can look great then a wind shift of a few degrees blows everything away in seconds. Those Gladiators might need re-orienting continuously - and they are on wheels. Even on stages closed on three sides, you can get, in a matter of tens seconds, all the stage invisible, totally opaque when the wind changes, or the total opposite - the cloud just heads off and there's nothing you can do. At best, you'll need a still night, plenty of power and LOTS of light sources. The panels will be terrible with haze/fog/smoke. Unless, that's the look you want. Air temperature is also a function of success. Cold ground and warmer air means the fog sinks, warmer ground makes the fog go up. The cheap machines also make lots of noise, but I guess they'll be lip-syncing? The disco smoke machines also cannot do sustained fogging - the flow through the small heater block cools it down, and they stop. You then need to wait for it to re-heat. https://www.martin.com/en/products/jem-glaciator-dynamic
 
firehawk said:
Agreed. I discussed with the owner the advice given here and he hasn't done anything since.
So when (if) he decides to go ahead with something I can share the outcome then
Click to expand...

I'm just kidding but still like seeing finished products, especially after posters receive a huge variety of advice - it's interesting to see which path they take. Thanks for the update, hopefully you'll finish it at some point.

What's the idea behind the music video? Is it RGB for the sake of it, does it turn into a dance floor etc?

Are there large stadium type lights?

Rather than anything goes (not saying this is your current stance), is there room to develop a more thoughtful colour palette. For example, each team's dugout is assigned a certain colour, which is slightly more motivated than RGB lights everywhere.

Without knowing more, you may be able to get by with the timpani/astras for lighting the talent. For BG, could you hire a larger unit to help add more depth so the field is dark, light, dark again or hits the talent as a strong back light too, motivated by the stadium lighting.
 
thank you paulears. Good advice and that puts things in a realistic perspective. We won't be able to do much with fog and certainly not anything big. There's no way to know yet what the weather will be like and as you said, it's never totally calm outside.
I'm not really trying to make a hazy sky with light beams going through it, but rather have some colored blasts of fog/smoke in the shot behind them and sometimes around them or in front. I want to add color to the video but am limited on firepower

That's good to know about the cold ground/ warm ground characteristics. I'll remember that for future projects too
 
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thank you rob norton. Yeah I'm grateful for the people who chime in to help here and it's good to share how things turned out. I think when people take the time to get involved it's interesting to hear how things went.

The reason for RGBs is so I can add some color. Not only the team colors but other colors to things. The players are pretty young so the goal is to be fun. So random colors will be fine.
The budget won't really allow renting and bringing in serious fog machines or big lights.
We can turn on and off the field lights so I planned on using that ability for some shots.
There will be a "singer/artist" lip syncing to her song and we will show her performing and also cut in shots of her with various team members with her. And cut in shots of the team doing things like diving for the ball. Catching a fly. Hitting. Dancing. Posing.
I have some colored smoke bombs, sparklers and confetti blasters. I thought of attaching one to a bat and have them swing it with a slow shutter for an effect. And have one player dive into home plate with some colored smoke or fog. Stuff like that.

Since the Luxli can do a strobe effect I thought about cutting in a shot of that too. But that may present rolling shutter so I may need to bring a global shutter camera for that.
We won't be able to control the smoke or fog direction for long or much so I was just hoping to blast some of it into shots as best we can.
I'm trying to come up with a list of ideas to run past the coach because I told him we need a plan because things go much better with plans and then we can adjust as needed.
The opening shot was going to be just the artist out on the field, stadium lights off, just her lit by my lights and then the stadium lights come on and the music starts.
I thought about the closing shot being the team posing with the singer as confetti falls in slow motion on and around them.
Those are the kinds of ideas I have so far but others may have much better
 
The trouble with stadium lights is they are totally bland, and designed to be even, yet music videos tend to want shadows and hot areas. Any chance you could beg or borrow a couple of theatrical follow spots? They're always effective and produce really hot contrast between the shadows and the light - but of course you need very good exposure control or they wipe out the features. Think in terms of splitting your lighting kit into two - one does illumination and the other effect. You need both.
 
paulears said:
The trouble with stadium lights is they are totally bland, and designed to be even, yet music videos tend to want shadows and hot areas. Any chance you could beg or borrow a couple of theatrical follow spots? They're always effective and produce really hot contrast between the shadows and the light - but of course you need very good exposure control or they wipe out the features. Think in terms of splitting your lighting kit into two - one does illumination and the other effect. You need both.
Click to expand...

Thank you. I think I'll make some calls and see if anyone has some of those type lights I could rent. I don't know anyone to borrow from unfortunately.
I haven't used any of those lights in video projects but I see how they would be good throwing a hard spot for great contrast

I have several Lowel tungsten lights I forgot about. Might help too?
250 Pro light
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=lowel pro light&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma

500 omni focus flood
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/285943-REG/Lowel_O1_101_Omni_Light_Focus_Flood_with.html

and some 750 totas
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod..._Light_Tungsten_Flood_Light.html?sts=pi&pim=Y

I have some gels but never used them with the tungsten lights. Might melt them?


Here are some ideas for some shots, though ours isn't really a hype promo like this but more of an artist performing with the players and showing the players do stuff
https://youtu.be/xS5Bu95f1Qc?t=39

I see in this video how the shots on the field with the stadium lights are bland and flat.
https://youtu.be/pd4yRZaVg8Q
 
Do you need the field lights to sell the location more? Can you turn on the back two towers and leave the front ones off? Then you can have a lot more control over the talent.

I wouldn't worry too much about the rolling shutter strobe, especially if it's a fun, low budget video or if it's possibly diverting funds away from any critical lighting equipment.

Ahead of time can you see what it's like to light the actual fog. It might be too tough or not even work well but there's a chance it will be one trick up your sleeve for a close up (where you're lighting less of the fog).

Sounds like you can power everything you have access to. The tungsten lights can be used just out of frame or completely in frame for flares if that's your thing. I really like it when there are lights blooming just outside of frame - like hinting at a flare without being an official or obnoxious flare.

For talent, as well as the coverage you mentioned you could get a handful of more exciting/unusual actions like whole team forming a pyramid, dancing on top of the dugout, weird formations on different stairs of the bleachers.

Also what about using the outfield? It seems like every single baseball video happens within the bases.

I really like your lights coming on during the shot. Check to see if there's a definite "on" or if they gradually increase intensity which you don't want. If this is the case maybe it's something you can fake in reverse. Rather than lip syncing in reverse you can change your coverage so you pull off the opening shot then change angles and proceed like normal.

The confetti could look better very close to the lens just falling through the foreground instead of trying to make nowhere near enough hit a large group. Or a combination of foreground confetti and stuff happening on the talent is probably the answer.
 
Thank you Rob very much for all the great input. That really helps. I'm checking with the coach to find out about the stadium lights.
 
firehawk said:
Hi. Got a shoot coming up that is a low budget music video to take place on a baseball field at night.
Click to expand...


You didnt actually say that you want it to look like a sports pitch - Im guessing you do.

Random thoughts.. (maybe not connected)

Tungsten work great in well ventilated well powered locations.. like sports arenas

You could get some funk by blancing at 3200 and let the house (stadia) lights do some funk.

In general you can keep the house lights causing front lighting off the subject with a black board.

If its a vid about baseball then changing rooms and alike could make fun

A 2k un gelled is going a long way

RGB (disco) leds are mainly horrid.
 
morgan_moore said:
You could get some funk by blancing at 3200 and let the house (stadia) lights do some funk.

In general you can keep the house lights causing front lighting off the subject with a black board..
Click to expand...

Thank you very much. I was wondering about how to pull white balance.
Perhaps hitting the subject front with tungsten will allow us to color them correctly and the background stadium will be weird color due to stadium lights.

Can you explain how to keep the front lighting off the subject with a blackboard?

Perhaps the RGB lights are bad ideas. The ideas I had for them was to try to add some color to backgrounds in tighter shots. And also put some on the ground under fog and behind fog to color it?
 
rob norton said:
Do you need the field lights to sell the location more? Can you turn on the back two towers and leave the front ones off? Then you can have a lot more control over the talent.
Click to expand...

Coach said the lights all come on together. So we can't leave some off. Not sure about if its gradual start or not.
 
firehawk said:
Thank you very much. I was wondering about how to pull white balance.
Perhaps hitting the subject front with tungsten will allow us to color them correctly and the background stadium will be weird color due to stadium lights.

Can you explain how to keep the front lighting off the subject with a blackboard?

Perhaps the RGB lights are bad ideas. The ideas I had for them was to try to add some color to backgrounds in tighter shots. And also put some on the ground under fog and behind fog to color it?
Click to expand...

Remember balancing at tungsten is only an idea.. you must test that!

By black board I mean large black lastolight, 8.8 cloth, or whatever, casting a shadow (of the stadium lights) over the talent.
 
I am concerned about white balance. What are some recommendations concerning how to pull that off?
I'm probably going to shoot the video with Sony FS700R, A7Riii and maybe A7Sii.
Is the general idea to white balance to whatever color temp I'm hitting the talent with? If I hit them with tungsten then balance to tungsten? If daylight then daylight balance?

Manually White balance the talent with a white card for each scene/setup?

We are probably going to be moving pretty fast since limited time once it gets dark and only shooting one night so I don't want to over-complicate things but I surely do not want to shoot a bunch of footage that the color looks terrible and I'm having to match up and patch up in post.
 
You want to set a fixed temperature. either..

aroud 5500k which might I guess match the stadium lights and then fill/key with LED which is also 5500

You then geat a white is white look through the whole thing

or

balance at 3000k which will make you tungsten fixtuers look white and any daylight (and probably the stadium lights) will look blue.

if your talent is lit with tung at 3000 and the camera is 3000 they will have a cool/funky/stupid (directors choice) blue rimlight from the stadia lights while having normal skintone.
This is the cheapest way to get a 'funky' look

often a camera is left at 4000 making any tung fixtures a bit warm and stopping the daylight fixtures from going too blue.
 
firehawk said:
I am concerned about white balance. What are some recommendations concerning how to pull that off?
I'm probably going to shoot the video with Sony FS700R, A7Riii and maybe A7Sii.
Is the general idea to white balance to whatever color temp I'm hitting the talent with? If I hit them with tungsten then balance to tungsten? If daylight then daylight balance?

Manually White balance the talent with a white card for each scene/setup?

We are probably going to be moving pretty fast since limited time once it gets dark and only shooting one night so I don't want to over-complicate things but I surely do not want to shoot a bunch of footage that the color looks terrible and I'm having to match up and patch up in post.
Click to expand...

The general idea is to go with what you like the look of. You can go for accuracy where everything appears similar to how you'd see it with your eyes. However, you could be entering the same territory of a small town news package where they're giving the high school sports updates (this is actually a poor example because some of those news pieces are hue city). I'm sure there are baseball movies which are also more true to real life, but they would have had much more control over pretty much every single aspect of the shot.

At the other end of the spectrum would be an "anything goes" "plan". This approach is part of why astera titans became so popular. People add those in the shot with some vibrant colours and call it a day. IMO now that we're on this side of the trend it's beginning to feel pretty sloppy and lazy. However, it's often also a case of making the most of what the shoot had access to, as well as the stylised colours with lights in shot being the preferred look over anything else.

I'd be looking at some type of middle ground, where it's not completely real but not whacky RGB for the sake of it either.

Other than the look you want, WB choices can come down to the difficulty of changing the colour of the lights. Sometimes it's faster to add CTO, sometimes it will be easier to add CTB.

In your case you're obviously not going to change the CT on the actual stadium lights so one option is to key your talent with something that's as far away as possible as those lights for some colour separation.

Check out Matt's newsshooter article reviewing the rotolight - https://www.newsshooter.com/2020/05/04/rotolight-titan-x2-review/

In the 'Real-World Performance & Quality of Light' section, Matt has WB'd for some RGB lighting. His face is natural enough but look at what happened to the BG light. Maybe you could do something similar for one or two shots?

In short, there's no one size fits all or correct way to set white balance on a music video shoot like this, which should be the fun part. Where in broadcast TV you'd be fired on the spot, you have a chance to express some creative freedom, even if that means staying accurate.

Can you go there ahead of time? Take your camera, one person and a light and experiment with a variety of WB settings.
 
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