A whole new crane Axis

J

Jeremy_Sawatzky

Well-known member
Heres a question for you guys. As I am currently in prototyping phase of jib development a cool thought entered my head. - As all cranes keep the head level weather moving up or down, None of them keep the head aiming straight ahead when moving side to side.

take your jib and put it on its side move it through its motions and ul understand what i mean. My question for you guys is would there be use for this in a shot? - Lets assume there is no remote head involved just a basic crane. As remote heads are quite expensive this is a common situation.

When the camera is at tripod level its easy enough to have a fluid head to pan with side to side. - sort of replacing a slider. - I have designs laid out to implement this into one of my future products. But I want to see the communities response and see if you guys would actually find use for this. - It would be a On or Off option definitely not on all the time.

To recap - would you guys use a crane that not only did top to bottom leveling (as usual) but also kept the camera pointing straight ahead with side to side movements?

Thanks guys - im getting closer with my current prototype working on it every day :D
 
Yes. I've thought about doing what your proposing. It would be very useful for when I go hiking and can't carry in a remote head. Then again, if someone knows of a really lightweight mechanical remote head that I can fly on top of the Aviator, please do post!
 
Others have definitely made mechanical pan/tilt heads, they just aren't lightweight or low cost. This one is over $1700 (just the head):


Now if someone made a super light version of that...
 
Interesting - hydraulic I guess

I meant I cant work out (and im not sure if it is possible) to do with traditional hard linkages

I often have tried to crack the conundrum

S
 
FYI, this concept is called "backpan compensation" and was developed and patented by Panavision Remote Systems some years back.
 
I'm not great at reading patents but I believe that the specific concept of compensating backpan, i.e. keeping the camera pointed in the same direction as the arm is swung from side to side, was the critical part of that patent, not the means to achieve it (electronic vs mechanical). Backpan is one of the tougher things about operating a remote head on a side-swinging arm, especially in situations where you have to change directions. Imagine the arm swinging left to right as you aim at a fixed subject; you have to pan left to maintain a straight-ahead look. Now what if in the middle of the swing of the arm, the subject starts walking right. Somewhere in there you have to ease off the pan and possibly start panning right to follow the subject. It's very tricky to decelerate the motion just so without a hitch in the shot. Backpan compensation really helps relieve this.

There is another function of the Panavision system which allows you to program in a nodal point and the head will effectively track it in pan and tilt, which is great for shooting sweeping moves of, say, a performer standing in one place.

Obviously that is a much more sophisticated version of what the OP is designing but I mention it just to indicate that the concept is indeed out there. A veriety of crane and remote head manufacturers have attempted versions of the backpan concept but have been unable to skirt the Panavision patent. The simplest I'd seen is an encoder at the fulcrum that measures the rotation around the base and then simply applies a reverse rotation to pan in a 1:1 ratio. Mechanically this could be done with a belt or cable-driven system that travels through the arm. The Steadicam Tango does just this.
 
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I've owned 2 of these Cambo heads and loved them, but couldn't sell one on DVXUser for $500 for months. People really stay away from the mechanical units. I loved it though. It gives me more feedback than an electronic unit.
 
I can absolutely design this to be completely mechanical with zero input from the user. Or the user can input if they want.

I hate to keep bragging but you guys will be seriously impressed with the product I am close to releasing. It sounds like this backpan is a cool idea i should implement. Perhaps in my next product. - For now I do need to polish off the initial design and prototype it.

using electronics to achieve that backpan is only one way to do it. I can do it mechanically and have it be a very robust system to take the abuse on set and then there will be a feature you guys will really be impressed with that i havent mentioned.


oh btw - a remote head under 3lbs, fits in the palm of your hand is in the works as well. :)
 
Jeremy_Sawatzky said:
I can absolutely design this to be completely mechanical with zero input from the user. Or the user can input if they want.

I hate to keep bragging but you guys will be seriously impressed with the product I am close to releasing. It sounds like this backpan is a cool idea i should implement. Perhaps in my next product. - For now I do need to polish off the initial design and prototype it.

using electronics to achieve that backpan is only one way to do it. I can do it mechanically and have it be a very robust system to take the abuse on set and then there will be a feature you guys will really be impressed with that i havent mentioned.


oh btw - a remote head under 3lbs, fits in the palm of your hand is in the works as well. :)
Click to expand...

Wondering what other products have you made that are for sale? Have a site where you're selling stuff?
 
I have sold some custom one off pieces of equipment like camera sliders and car mounts and a lightweight portable crane (and i built a 12foot crane a couple years ago) But i have yet to release a proper product. I have a jib in development that has some very impressive specs compared to competitors and i am entering prototyping phase next week. Il make a thread when I officially launch.
 
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Darn. Was sort of hoping you'd been through the whole process of releasing a product to market already so you know what to look out for, pitfalls, challenges of doing that.

I've never done such a thing personally (I'm not that crazy!), but I worked at a company years back that was working through all the obstacles of releasing their first commercial product.

There's probably a lot of frustration ahead for you, but I wish you all the best with it and will be watching for that thread.

BTW, are you thinking of trying to go the Kickstarter route?
 
I was... until I discovered its next to impossible without being a US citizen. I'm a Canadian just a few miles north of the border in B.C. I might try and use Indiegogo but that doesnt have near the exposure as Kickstarter. - Money isnt the issue at the moment. But just getting the product recognized is what Kickstarter is so good at.

I have a marketer ready to go, getting a website setup, ordering, shipping and so on. I shouldn't run into too many issues. I already have the business license sorted.

If possible i would love to unveil at cinegear or a convention similar to that. I dont know though how it works taking orders for a product at a convention in the united states.
 
morgan_moore said:
Interesting - hydraulic I guess

I meant I cant work out (and im not sure if it is possible) to do with traditional hard linkages

I often have tried to crack the conundrum

S
Click to expand...

Difficult with a hard link because you may want to be able to go past 180 degrees when panning. But it can be done with a timing belt and pulleys for the pan axis. But that would leave you with a fixed nodal point as is done with tilt. But I would think having an adjustable nodal point is very important for the pan function.
 
Im curious though about this patent buisness. Say i design and model this - bring it to market. I use hard linkages throughout. Theres no way the patent wont allow that movement. Achieving that motion with an electric setup yes but If i do it mechanically then they cant do crap about it can they?

patents scare the crap outa me.
 
You're in the clear for the first patent link that Keylight provides. The most important part of the patent is the claims section. In fact, it is really the only part of a patent that matters in the courts. That is the back section of the patent. In this case, the first claim discusses an electronic means of backpan compensation. The other claims discuss the compensator and other features. So it does not cover a mechanical means of doing the same thing.

This is a poorly written patent. Patents should make the broadest claims possible. It should have the first claim as being a backpan mechanism, without specifying how it does it. It has left open that anyone coming up with another means to accomplish backpan can do so without infringing on the patent. The patent was filed in November 1998, so it may only have 3 more years of life (patents filed after 1995 live for 17 years after being granted or 20 years after being filed, whichever is greater).

I wasn't able to read the second link to provide commentary.

My background - I have several patents and have spent years reviewing patent applications with patent attorneys, so I have some minor experience with this sort of thing, but for sure, I am no expert on the subject. You should do your own research and make your own judgements.
 
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If you go over to Robotshop.ca or really any OEM robot parts store, you can usually find pan/tilt heads pretty cheap compared to a "commercial" solution.

Here is one http://www.robotshop.com/ca/aluminum-pt785-pan-tilt-system-2.html for $373, it weighs 1.8lbs and can handle 6lbs, if you wanted it to handle more weight you would just swap out the servos. It doesn't include the controller which you can pick up for another $53 here http://www.robotshop.com/ca/servocity-manual-servo-driver.html or find one somewhere else.

They have a few more, including one that can handle up to 40lbs for $1200 and comes with everything you need.
 
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