a scanner darkly look. how to begin?

Blaine,

Not really concerned about criticism at all, couldn't care less, it's more that a personal pet peeve of mine was hit - refering to animation as a look, when it's nothing more or less than a method. In fact, I don't see any real criticism there, as the things being describing are actually the very things I set out to accomplish - I am quite proud of the fact that I have something that looks almost live when I know full well that not even a single pixel of the source is left, it means I did what I set out to do right.

No, what irked me are the misconceptions about animation. There is no "animation" filter in FCP, or Vegas, et al for a reason, nor should there be. Studio Artist, with it's PASeq's come the closest to that, but it still has to go frame by frame, requiring a good deal of input from the user as to the final look. This seems to be a common misconception folks are having, that there's some magic way to turn your stuff into an animation, that it's an effect, and not a method. That's all I was saying. This being a filmmaking community, one I have been part of for years (had another name before, but got a new one), I just thought that maybe trying to raise the level of discourse/understanding about rotoscoping & animation, that there's no magic "animation look" filter you can place on your timeline in FCP (at least right now), and that it's not any one particular "style", any more than there's any one camera style, these things seemed to need to be clarified. This site is far too informative in other aspects for this to not be corrected.

But, again, it is just a pet peeve. Some people don't like it when people use the word "ironic" incorrectly, this is just my own version of that. Sorry for the neurosis....
 
Last edited:
studio artist is amazing! but only for MAC grrrrrrrr!!!!!
i hate mac!!!! they get some kick ass software we dont
 
Ogrus said:
studio artist is amazing! but only for MAC grrrrrrrr!!!!!
i hate mac!!!! they get some kick ass software we dont
Click to expand...

It does really kick arse. I'm still really shocked at how small the user base is, seeing as how it incorporates nearly all the functions of After Effects, Flash, Illustrator, Photoshop, Painter, Instant HD, and then some things that don't really exist anywhere else into one program, like it's basic design for autorotoscoping. It is a huge timesaver going to one program and doing nearly everything I have to within the one interface. I could live without all of the forementioned programs, but not without Studio Artist. Yeah, too bad about you being a windows guy. Have you thought about one of the new Core Duos? Even the Mac Mini's are sporting Core Duos now, almost putting them in league with my Dual 2.7 G5 PPC's. Damn that Rosetta stuff though, slows clock speed by a half for things that haven't been ported to "Universal". I did hear that by the end of the year you should be able to, on startup, choose, from a start up screen, to run Windows or Mac, natively, no emulation going in either direction, or at least that was my understanding. How in the world they're going to pull that off, I dunno.
 
I made it 320x240 so I could upload it onto DVXuser.

It's 8 fps and that actually helps it look more animated.

Tell me if you'd like to get a walk-through of how I did that. It's just some effects in Vegas and I think they look pretty good.
 
bballplaya283 said:
I made it 320x240 so I could upload it onto DVXuser.

It's 8 fps and that actually helps it look more animated.

Tell me if you'd like to get a walk-through of how I did that. It's just some effects in Vegas and I think they look pretty good.
Click to expand...

So, you found the edges, turned 'em black and white, slapped them over a smart gaussian blurred and/or diffused source, oversatured the result, and turned the frame rate to 8P? Nice effect, but it ain't animated. It's a "cartoon" EFFECT, done within an NLE.

Just something to help you get over your 8P=animation preconception: "A Scanner Darkly" was actually animated at a HIGHER frame rate than the source footage as opposed to the other way around, due to requirements of the editing system they were using. It's the flat areas, with their inherent hard edges, and Sabison's interpolation algorithm, that give the image stability.

Anime', which is the look they were going for, is actually done at various speeds, 8P (trips), 12P (twos), all the way up to 24P for extremely high speed movement. 8P=animation is akin to the thinking that used to exist in the early stages of the DV community that 24P=film look. It may be part of it, of a look of a certain type of animation, but it certainly goes much deeper than that, as animation is dependent on many other variables as well, not the least of which is the fact that it's actually drawn, be it interpolated, by hand, or somewhere in between like Sabison's software.

As for your look, if it were that easy, there's no way they would have taken so long to put the film out, hired close to a hundred animators, who slaved away for long hours, tirelessly to get this animated film in the can. Trust me, if some filters in Vegas, and a slowdown in speed would have done the trick, the producers would have done it that way. That's why it's a pet peeve of mine when someone, especially filmmakers who ought to know better, refers to animation as a look or effect, and not a method. What you've got is a cartoon effect, a good one, but an effect nonetheless.:dankk2:
 
Last edited:
I guess I forgot to mention it was just a lot of effects. How you think I did it was wrong, but it doesn't really matter. I'm aware I did not rotoscope it truly and it is not "exactly" like the film did it, but I think it has a pretty cool animated look.

I also did the 8p so it would look more like animation, because the 24/30p was way too smooth for the look I was going for.

Edit: Not an animation, more like a cartoon.
 
Last edited:
I would like to add that it does look a lot like a bad quality version of A Scanner Darkly in my opinion. If I were to make a short that way, I would use that effect, but rotoscope the person because the person doesn't look very good.
 
bballplaya283 said:
I guess I forgot to mention it was just a lot of effects. How you think I did it was wrong, but it doesn't really matter. I'm aware I did not rotoscope it truly and it is not "exactly" like the film did it, but I think it has a pretty cool animated look.

I also did the 8p so it would look more like animation, because the 24/30p was way too smooth for the look I was going for.
Click to expand...

I'm not getting on you for the look at all, I thought it was good for effects. Try this method of phrasing instead about your reasons for 8P though, as it's nearly giving me a freakin' coronary.

"I also did the 8p so it would look more like a CARTOON, because the 24/30p was way too smooth for the look "I" was going for."

My point is, just like a film can be shot a dozen different ways, each with their own characteristics, the one thing they all hold in common is not the frame rate, nor the depth of field, nor the lighting, but a progressive frame, all the way from 8mm to 35mm; animation's joining glue, what separates animation from something that has been just simply been processed is the fact that it has been drawn/molded/interpolated, frame by frame, in order to acheive it's final look and motion. Just as with the multiple looks of film, the frame rate is irrelevant, so is the style, and finally, so is the medium. If it's been animated, it's animation. What I'm getting at is please do not confuse the method (animation) with the look (cartoon). Just trying to bring the discourse about animation around here to the level that the filmmaking discussion's are at....

Also about 24/30P being too smooth, only if you have good interpolation, or freaking meticulous animators or both, can it be too smooth, otherwise it goes exactly in the opposite direction being too frenetic. One of the advantages to 8P or 12P is it gives you the illusion of a longer static image. This may work well in situations where the subject is static, however if you have a moving camera or quickly moving subject, trips or twos will quickly look strobey. Congrats on discovering one of the tools....
 
Last edited:
I am not saying that all animation is 8p. I am not saying something that has a high frame rate is not animation. I know what animation is, and I know what cartoons are. My real life video is not an animation. It is a video with effects on top of it to make it look more like animation.

What I meant by my comment that is close to giving you a heart attack, is that by giving it a lower frame rate, it makes it look less life-like. Hence, looking more like an animation. It is not an animation because it is 8p, no. I agree with you there.

If you would like me to post my video with the exact same effects in 30p, you can decide with me which video looks closer to the look of something that actually is animation; 30p, or 8p.

Before posting my video, I made a conscious decision that by giving my experimental try at an animated look a frame rate of 8 frames per second, it would look closer to something drawn, than something that was taken directly from real life.
 
bballplaya283 said:
I am not saying that all animation is 8p. I am not saying something that has a high frame rate is not animation. I know what animation is, and I know what cartoons are. My real life video is not an animation. It is a video with effects on top of it to make it look more like animation.

What I meant by my comment that is close to giving you a heart attack, is that by giving it a lower frame rate, it makes it look less life-like. Hence, looking more like an animation. It is not an animation because it is 8p, no. I agree with you there.

If you would like me to post my video with the exact same effects in 30p, you can decide with me which video looks closer to the look of something that actually is animation; 30p, or 8p.

Before posting my video, I made a conscious decision that by giving my experimental try at an animated look a frame rate of 8 frames per second, it would look closer to something drawn, than something that was taken directly from real life.
Click to expand...

You're not trying to look like an animation, as there is no such "look". Examples: "A Bug's Life", "American Pop", & "A Scanner Darkly" are all animated, but look considerably different; you're trying, more specifically, to look like a CARTOON, which does have more of a set specific "look", thusly bold lines, flat areas, and even 8P or 12P can contribute to that look. Specificity is at issue here. If I say I'm going for a film look, does that mean a beat up Super 8mm, or pristine 35mm? Big difference there. It's a matter of proper descriptors, which in most of the rest of this board as it deals to film and DV, are used.

If you put your footage at 30P, without any interpolation a la Rotoshop, yeah, you're exactly right, it ain't gonna look like a cartoon, as you're aiming for, it's going to like more like processed video, as generally speaking, cartoons are done at 8P when they can get away with with it, 12P when they can't get away with 8P, and 24P only when they can't get away with 12P. None of those speeds make it LOOK LIKE an animation, as there is no such thing as an animation look. A drawn or interpolated cartoon just IS an animation because that is how it was generated.
 
Last edited:
I wanted my clip to look as if it was actually drawn. I realize that FPS has nothing to do with this. Once I had my "animated" look down, I wanted to make it look further from reality, so I gave it unnatural motion: 8fps.

What we are debating really doesn't matter at all though. I don't know about animation and I just gave it a shot.

I realize you live in Austin, Texas.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=35299

Check it out, we're going to have a get-together.

I'm sort of acting as the organizer right now, but I don't know why because I'm 14 years old.
 
Last edited:
bballplaya283 said:
I wanted my clip to look as if it was actually drawn. I realize that FPS has nothing to do with this. Once I had my "animated" look down, I wanted to make it look further from reality, so I gave it unnatural motion: 8fps.

What we are debating really doesn't matter at all though. I don't know about animation and I just gave it a shot.

I realize you live in Austin, Texas.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=35299

Check it out, we're going to have a get-together.

I'm sort of acting as the organizer right now, but I don't know why because I'm 14 years old.
Click to expand...

It's a good shot you gave. I do suggest that you try the Studio Artist demo (if you have a Mac, or have access to one via a friend - but not the new ones, the older PPCs G4,G5, etc.). Despite the fact that the look I went for is non-cartoony look, more like a moving realism painting, you will find that it is quite capable of doing cartoon looks exceptionally well. The paint synth section basically work off the bezier curves, analyzing what is on the curve, and what is not, thus determining where a line is, and where a color area is. Not to mention it's natural media capabilities, like Corel Painter that moves. There's also the supersizer, which is an uprezzing command in SA that works pretty well too. Also, many of the functions on SA are resolution independent, so once it's rotoscoped, you can scale to billboard size if you want. The program is specifically designed for rotoscoping. And no, I don't work for them, although I would in a second - they're out of Hawaii.

There are some other (at least there used to be) good digital filmmaking groups in town, although they general meet in bars, which generally excludes me and my wife at this point since we have a two year old daughter. If you're looking for a good place to have a DVXuser meeting, I would check out Cafe' Caffiene over on Mary off S.1st. It's owned by the Unemployed Democrats Company (the black background and white letter bumper stickers across the freakin' country), right across the street from Alex Jones' new digs. The guy there actually gives away free coffee for film and video shoots, like you bring in your large coffee container, and he'll fill it free. I'm going to be having my screening there on September 16th.
 
Last edited:
I guess I forgot to mention that I am not doing some rotoscoping piece right now, I just tested out Sony Vegas to see how close to that cartoony look I was going for, since there had been lots of discussion about how to pull off a "poser rotoscope" look.

There is a thread in the Vegas forum about how to get sort of a look-a-like rotoscope within Vegas and I made that video to show my attempt in that thread, and decided it would pertain to this one also.

I live sort of in the Northwest Austin area and am not quite familiar with the places you are talking about downtown, but if you give me some info on the place you are having your screening at, I would really like to come check it out.
 
Also yes, the whole meeting in bars thing also excludes me because I don't have an ID/drivers license, and the whole, "Mom will you drive me downtown tonight to meet some people I met over the internet in a bar," typically doesn't work.
 
bballplaya283 said:
Also yes, the whole meeting in bars thing also excludes me because I don't have an ID/drivers license, and the whole, "Mom will you drive me downtown tonight to meet some people I met over the internet in a bar," typically doesn't work.
Click to expand...


That's too damn funny. I'm pretty freaking sure I'd not be letting my daughter do that either in twelve years, or even twenty years. Although I'm a pacifist by nature, I'm pretty sure whoever that first chap is who comes pick up my daughter for a date is going to have to have a little chat with me while I meticulously clean the shotgun I won't even have bullets for.

On the opposite end of things, it is hard to find "family friendly" places to go, although most coffeehouses are pretty accomidating these days. It might be a overall good idea to use a kind of neutral place like that for many folks, and caffeine would probably work better to keep a meeting on track....
 
That's too damn funny. I'm pretty freaking sure I'd not be letting my daughter do that either in twelve years, or even twenty years. Although I'm a pacifist by nature, I'm pretty sure whoever that first chap is who comes pick up my daughter for a date is going to have to have a little chat with me while I meticulously clean the shotgun I won't even have bullets for.
Click to expand...

Hahaha.

Yes I can't really think of anywhere other than a place like that, but we aren't making much progress so I think we will have a little while before we decide.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top