A really stupid question!

thetaintedwindow

thetaintedwindow

Member
[SIZE=+0]Hi everyone,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]I've actually been following the posts from different forums (on any film subject) and have to admit that this place so far has answered many of my questions. I never had to ask these questions because most members here are so informative that as a non-member all I had to do was go to this site and search and walaaaaaaaa! My questions were answered. And so i've been doing this for about a month.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Finally, i've been forced (well... not really forced) to become a member because of a question thats driving me nuts. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]First let me assure you that I am not just a noob, but i'm like the private pile of all noobs... which means I don't hardly know anything at all of what i'm talking about... but that shouldnt stop me from trying.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]The Info: based off posts on this forum so far I have purchased ever so cautiously a Mac with final cut studio, an HVX with a 416 mic and now I'm looking (still ever so cautiously) for a tripod and a boom. I plan on kinda crash coursing myself for the next year on all aspects of filmmaking and using the money I'm getting every month from a lawsuit to build my equipment so next year I have both the brains... and the whatever the hell I have besides the brains (sorry, still dont have the brains yet) to make a feature film. But anyway, now you know why i'm flying before I can walk as Wayne Kinney so beautifully put it, lol.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]The question: I am being offered a MKH70 for 800$ and I have until tomorrow to decide. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Mind you that for the next year I will be buying mostly everything I need to make a real feature by next april. What is this mic good for and should I take the offer? And please forget the fact that i'm new to this, in two years I (hopefully) wont be, I cant burn up my money on low end stuff to practice and then next year upgrade, I need to get all the things I need while I still can and hope to God it all works out.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Hey guys, seriously, i will take all your considerations to heart and i appreciate greatly your generous patience.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Jim[/SIZE]
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Well, it's a nice mic, but you say you already have a 416?
Keep in mind that I'd venture to guess 99% of persons started out with MUCH LESSER quality gear than you, and were content in knowing once their artistic/filmic/technical knowledge grew, so also would their understanding of what they needed technically.
I'm not sure how to put this: the gear you speak of is SO professional it's not even funny. You are talking REAL quality stuff here; hardly a place that ANYONE "needs" to start at.

For $250 you can get a VERY good shotgun mic, an AT835B, and there's tons of others too. IF you have the 416 already, you WILL be pleased with that for years to come.

Don't sweat the little details like this: go out and learn the cam and start filming.
 
Assuming it is good working order (heck even if needs some servicing) $700 is a steal on a MKH70. BUT you really don't need it. Put the money towards getting quality w/l (Lecto 400 is getting cheap), mixer, and other gear you will want. I have the 816 and it collects dust most days. Even when I do use it, I could probably get by with my 60.

That said, if you don't mind taking advantage of a good deal, buy the 70 and resell it for a profit. I can't guarantee a profit but you should be able to get three or four hundred dollars extra for it.

A final thought, the segmenting of jobs in video/film production is not a union hoax. It's great that you want to understand audio, everyone in the biz should, but don't try and wear too many hats. Owning quality gear is great but if you want good audio you need someone who knows how to use it. These people usually come with their own gear.

Cheers
 
just want to disagree with saying an at835b is a very good shotgun mic. its okay, but the 416 or any other mkh series mic will smoke it BAD... im glad you got a 416. wabbit is right, if you buy that mic, buy it for reselling, because the 416 is so similar anyways...

good gear, but again, i agree with wabbit - dont wear too many hats. it can hurt you when you're aiming for something so big.
 
Hey timeapter,
no problem with you disagreeing with my assessment of the AT835b.
I did a comparison test between the 835b and the 416, and I agree the 416 is better; but there's a price difference also.
I'd still call the AT835b a VERY good mic,
the 416 just happens to be EXCELLENT! :)
 
I don't know about ya'll but in general I have a hard time telling someone who admits that they have no knowledge of anything film, video, or sound related that their current course of action is a proper one.

It doesn't matter what camera, mic, or set up you buy, you need to take the necessary steps to learn it.

If your question is whether the $700 for that mic is a good deal, then yes, it's a complete steal. If your question is whether I would recommend you buying that or any of the stuff that you have listed, then I say no.

Just my $.02

-Jeremy
 
Hey guys, thank you for taking the time to giving me the tips and advice I needed to make my decision. I do have some more questions if anybody would care to comment on them, but other than that I think I know what to do.
I wanted to know, I was told that the MKH70 is mostly an outdoor mic because it generates too much of an echo indoors. Would my 416 be a good indoor mic? And how does the 416 fare for collecting ambiance and all that?
Recently my company sent me packing and did so on illegal grounds, I am recieving a settlement from them spread out over the next 14 months and I decieded to do what I've always wanted to do. I was givin a job in a studio here in cleveland through a stunt cordinator buddy of mine and he is pretty bigtime, he hosts the festival here in cleveland and has all this invaluable experience, but he also has connections so I can get all the best stuff cheap. The plan pretty much for now is to stockpile everything I need to make a great film while learning the basics in the studios and with the crews in cleveland and surrounding areas. And once the year is up, grab all my equipment and knowhow (however small it may be) and make shorts for a year, deal with problems, make more dcisions and ultimately get to know my crew and my equipment. Then the plan is to shoot the movie.
It all sounds good on paper, but of course there are always set backs, but as long as I stay focused I think things will work themselves out for the best.
Thanks again, Jim
 
thetaintedwindow said:
The plan pretty much for now is to stockpile everything I need to make a great film...
Click to expand...

See, I think this is where that plan might NOT be the best course of action.
You can learn the trade with FAR less quality gear. You just do not need this kind of equipement to start off with.
This is what just about every post here is trying to tell you.

I almost GUARANTEE you will NOT notice the difference between the MKH70 and the 416. The TECHNIQUE of using a mic will FAR outweigh the relatively TINY quality difference in these mics.

This point stressed again: a GOOD sound engineer / person can get FANTASTIC audio out of relatively cheap mics. One needs to LEARN the basics FIRST, and THEN you will automatically know what type of equipment you will NEED.

You seem to be all caught up in these discussions of various pieces of equipment, this mic that, this mic this. The best advice we can give you here: START SMALLER, and then grow in experience and THEN you'll spend that money MUCH more wisely.

Put your money into a savings account, play with some cheaper gear, and then once you are comfortable, get what you want.
I hope this post will not come across as patronizing, it is meant as helpful advice.
 
This is my problem... You have a 416 but you don't know about microphones or sound. It's like getting a Ferrarri for your first car without knowing how to drive or having a license. Slow down, get a GS120, go shoot with an AT55 and then build up to a DVX or HVX with a 416 kit or something along those lines.

Walk before you run, that's all I'm saying because as of right now you're looking at dropping $20,000 in equipement that will sit and collect dust because you don't know what you're doing.

Here is an example. I want to learn to play the guitar. Do I go out and buy a full Marshall stack, a top of the line effects processor, a massive protools TDM system, a full press CD duplicator, and also a Gibson Les Paul or a PRS Custom? Nope. I go to guitar center and get a $300 guitar, amp, and cable and play with it while I learn. As I progress I upgrade the guitar, the amp, and then add to the process.

But hey, it's your cash, do whatcha want.
 
agreed... and yeah, vidled, i do see where you're coming from..

personally, i kinda wish id just gone ahead and bought my 416 first. i wasted too much cash on the upgrades, and at the moment im stuck with a sony uwp-c1 wireless kit because i figured i could learn with it, now i want the new lectro 401 kits, and i wish i had the money back to put into them!

so, i do understand what yankee and vidled are saying here, and its very responsible and good advice. and i think it especially applies because you clearly dont have a passion for sound so much as a passion for filmmaking.

but lets just say, a 416 rocks the universe. and if you have one, and the time and passion to learn, as far as im concerned, that IS the tool to learn with - the sucker makes you WORK for its awesome sound!

good luck...
 
sorry, let me just clarify quick - didnt mean you dont have passion for sound, just like you arent looking to specialize, youre trying to learn about everything.

sorry, just reread and saw it looked a bit rude of me. :)
 
Just to extend what my esteemed collegues have said, if you want to learn sound, the best way to start is to hire a great mixer for your first project and spend time with him/her. Maybe sling boom a bit just to understand that it is not as simple as keeping the microphone out of the shot. Then build your equipment list based on your experience, rather than what people here or elsewhere recommend as being the "best". My first shotgun was an AT897, and it was a great learning mic and one I actually still have in my kit (as previously mentioned, for situations where it may get damaged beyond repair).

Honestly, you could go out and buy all the best equipment (and I've put my fantasy list together in a different thread on micing inside a car...check it out) and still get sound that is crappy. For example, if you stick with a 416 for your shotgun and a Schoeps 641 for your hyper, and you have a novice boom op, I will put money on the table right now that you will have sound problems. Those are both mics that require very exacting boom position to get optimal sound, and I have not yet worked with a PA converted to a boom op that has succeeded their first time out. That's why I carry a 4073a and Rode NT5's in my bag of tricks. Both sound very good, and are much more forgiving.

Anyway, HTH.

Phil
 
Many of us have the same dilemma you have, 'window, in that as we are learning we aren't sure whether to buy the decent gear we can afford now or wait for top-notch gear. The difference is that you sound like the cash is available or will be soon. My advice is to really dig through these posts and find what is needed for SOLID results - and don't spend a penny more until you get some experience under your belt. (I said SOLID, not mediocre). Gear in that range you will likely continue to hang on to even as you learn to use equipment which is more advanced . I have a Rode NTG-2 shotgun, an Oktava MKO12, and a Countryman EMW lav currently. While this equipment will impress no one - it gets the job done. If used correctly - very few people will notice the difference between this and gear that costs ten times its amount. Furthermore, it will continue to have a use when I CAN afford gear that costs ten times as much (god willing that day will come.)

Which is a more likely scenario...

A) You're watching the screening of your first feature and say to yourself "damn, that scene would have been SO MUCH better had my cousin (the makeshift "soundman") used a Senn 416 rather than my at4073a."

or

B) Damn, that scene would have been great if I could have afforded a soundguy who knew what he was doing and actors that could actually act.

Great gear in inexperienced hands will NEVER EVER sound better than decent gear in experienced hands - period. It's really easy to convince yourself that you're serious about your dreams by throwing money at them - but money alone rarely gets you very far (I speak from experience). Actually going out there and getting dirt under you fingernails is a much better investment in your future. If you've got both money and a work ethic - you're in great shape. But I'd much rather have the latter than the former if I could choose only one.

It sounds like you're serious and motivated. I'm sure you're going to have a blast learning this craft. But take my .02 for what it's worth (and coming from me - it's only worth it's advertised price), save the money you'd spend on Hollywood level gear for a Hollywood level crew - you and your productions will be better served.
 
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Everyone here has been truly, truly awesome in their advice and patience. I have been following along and can't begin to express the gratitude I feel for all of you who have concerned yourselves with this post when they really didn't have to. (Timapter don't worry, no one sounded rude to me, just caring).

I want you guys to know that it was hard to sit still and not try to instill my own view on things between replies... I asked for advice, I asked for guidance and I wanted blunt truth and everyone delivered in the way a coach or parent would.
I would like to point out something, just to ease everyone's mind (including my own), and that is that about 99% of you recommended start small, dont run before walking and get experience with cheaper (not necessarily poorer) equipment.
One of the things I will be doing is this very exact course of action, with all the equipment I want (low end and high) lent to me by the studio and friend I am working for. The big picture for me is that my crew and I will all be starting small but will eventually in two to three years end up with some knowledge through various type of equipment and experience. But in the long run, when we have to part ways with this city and our jobs to pursue our collective dream... well, we will have the means to do so without asking, borrowing or renting.

It might collect some dust, lol, the farraris and lambos will have to sit in their garages for the time being while me and my guys race in bumper cars all across the lot... but at the time that we recognize our reckoning, hey, we will drive away in style. And if not, at least we can say we tried.

Thanks everyone for all your help, I look forward to further conversations with all of you and please don't judge me as a hard head... there is always one in the group.
Jim
 
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