A question about Fresnel lighting kits on eBay

R

RupertPupkin

Active member
Hello all,

I just graduated from college with film/video production as my major. I've finally got my own camera, a few rigs including follow focus, and a large collection of lenses. The next thing I would really like to invest in is some quality lighting equipment because lets face it, everything looks much better and professional when properly lit. I just finished taking a lighting class last semester and I was fortunate enough to use and experiment with many different styles of lighting equipment. I really like the hard light of the Fresnel's, which can always be diffused for softer light if desired. I got to work with both Arri and Mole 350s,650s, and 1ks, and I enjoyed working with both.

I've noticed that on websites such as B&H, Arri Fresnel lighting kits are quite pricey, some around the $2,000+ range. As a broke college grad I really can't afford something like that, so on a whim I checked out some Fresnel lights on eBay. I found some insanely cheap Arri and Mole Fresnel's and the prices seem too good to be true, so I'm wondering if I'm perhaps missing something?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/As-ARRI-650...475?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item338197062b

It just seems crazy that they are selling a kit for that cheap. Individual lights can be found for under $200 as well.

Is this legitimate?

Thanks for all the help
 
I guess I should have read a little more in depth before posting, apparently all of these lights are just Arri clones, I was fooled because they look identical.

Does anyone have any experience with these clone lights, are they of decent quality?
 
It's legit. At least as legit as anything from China can be. I have a three-650 kit from Jie Tu. I am very satisfied with the quality. Nice aluminum castings and extrusions. Top quality rubber extension cord, not the garbage PVC cord. Well put together. I bought a softbox kit as well. Very nice. Sturdy, well built, well sewn.

Two complaints - The speed ring had rubber pads to clamp to the light. Of course they soften almost to the point of melting. The case is really heavy and should have wheels.

That inexpensive light comes with a price. What about spares and service? Forget it. But I've been told that they are so close a copy of Arri that Arri spares will work. This is an important consideration. These lights are sturdy. About the only thing that can break is the lens and the lamp socket. And these are readily available. So the spares situation should be ok.

Caution - each China vendor makes slightly different copies. Some make them better than others.
 
Rather than purchase knockoff lights which may have questionable quality issues, might I suggest purchasing used Arri and Mole Richardson lights which will save you money like the knockoffs, but hold the quality you want.
 
On one of my knockoffs the lens cracked from heat (on 300w light?????), another light had its yoke broken and yet on third one the tightening knob literally turned to dust. Headless to say that i let go of those lights as soon as i could. For me those Chinese lights are junk not worthy the price. If you want lights buy used Arris or Lowels.
 
I really like the used Mole Richardson lamps...I've found they are a bit easier to repair than their arri counterparts. Also they're very easy to freshen up if you just buy a can of the moleroon paint and go to town.
 
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If you intend to make this your living, don't waste your time with the Chinese items. You need rock solid equipment and support.

If this is a hobby where the items will get modest use and your living doesn't depend upon them, then the Chinese stuff may be ok. Or you may regret it.

You will never regret buying the good stuff and if you get out of the business, you will be able to resell it for a good return.
 
If you can live with the moral side of the purchase, then the Chinese ones are fine. If I was buying for my hire stock, I would NOT buy these, but for my own use, no problems at all.

It doesn't matter who you buy from. The Chinese system revolves around small cottage industry style operation, often based in a bigger building where lots of allied businesses work together. So the factory who produce the extrusions and castings only make those bits. The internals come from somebody else, and the lenses yet another source. People buy the parts and assemble the products. Very little is kept in the way of actual built stock. None of the people who make your unit will understand how it works, or what it's being used for - they just make up the kits.

Here in the UK, because of our higher supply voltage - 230V - we have a fairly common testing system. These Chinese units will often fail the electrical test. Usually, it will be stupid things, like ground terminals that are loose, and high resistance, or sometimes they just forget to put them on! Other times the ground conductor will have a crimped on eye on the end, but they screwed it into the blue coloured casting with a self-tapping screw - but the paint insulates it! This kit in the UK must be grounded, and some I had were 3 conductor cable into a cable mounted switch, but this switch only had two conductors, so no ground at all, going to the actual lamp house!

If you have the skills to check these things, then I really can't find fault with the performance. Why would I not hire them? Simply because the accessories are made from rather poor metal. Barndoors - for instance. They can fall off, because the circular retaining ring can bend. The actual flaps are quite thick, but amazingly soft on two I have here. You can bend the metal with thumb and first finger!

What else can go wrong? On the bigger version that use bi-pin lamp bases, the spring tension on the clamping system can be poorly adjusted so they need dismantling and an extra turn putting on. Easy if you've done it once. On the 650W versions, the lead screw inside to adjust focus is quite fragile, and over tightening can bend it, so it jams.

That lot will make you think. You could decide that all this means a genuine Arri is best. All parts available and reliable kit. Some Arri spares will fit, but the castings are not exactly the same, nor are the extrusions, and screw hole placement is not the same - basically the Chinese screw holes can be wherever the person in the factory fancied, and sometimes, they even put them together wrong, drilling holes into 'nothing'. I had some Source 4 zooms to evaluate, but I broke two knobs, and every version was put together wrong. The design allows the lens tube to rotate, yet the way they were assembled meant it could not. The gobo slots are also 5mm smaller so ETC frames don't fit.

That all said, I have in my theatre rig lots of 1K Arri clones, that don't get moved much, and they have been excellent value.
 
If you must go cheap then I suggest Coollights. Richard is forum sponsor and poster so you have a bit more connection with them.

You can also look into Altman tv fresnels. Not quite as expensive as Arri and Mole but still good quality from a US company that has been around for MANY years.
 
+1 for Cool Lights, Richard and crew are great, and that extra few hundred will leave you a happy camper.

Beyond the main issues noted above, another aspect you want to think about is simply just how hot these lights run, and how low the tolerances on many of the materials used in these cheap knockoffs are. Some people have had them and used them on commercial sets, some people have had them meltdown, some people have a few they keep around for a quick fix if need be, but every time you're taking a chance. That can be said with any light source, and virtually any piece of equipment, but for some reason cheap tungsten light has always scared me. If a cheap follow focus breaks on set, no big deal, if a light running at incredibly high temperatures breaks, someone is likely to get hurt and damage will be done.

I know you're set on tungsten light (and nobody will disagree that it's very versatile), you also need to analyze what the majority of your work will be, and the setting in which it'll take place. Starting out, it's likely that much of your work will be smaller, interview style pieces, during which tungsten lights will go a long way towards roasting you and your talent. You may find you're better served by a set of Fluorescent Lights (which Cool Lights also makes), or even LEDs, which are great for one man bands running lean and mean, I have several CN600s, and they work well (also from China, but since they run cool, I'm not all that worried). A set of 650w fresnels will also push a smaller power grid to it's limit. You can always rent Arris or Moles when you need to light a larger set.

The new F&V LEDs look nice as well.
 
I second the Coolights option. I did a lengthy amount of research and found you really don't know what you are getting with the clones. One of the eBay vendors basically waves a red flag at the issue because they carry a "pro" or upgraded version. I asked them what the difference and between their lower cost model and the more expensive one and they said basically improved parts (heavier gauges etc). That should give a buyer a clue. Do you want something which a part is prone to break because it's just a minimum spec or do you want something you can keep for years? You really don't know what you are getting on any of the clones because in these lights there are so many parts. To me it was way too risky and the price difference was not that great so I went with Coolights. Also, hopefully at least Coolights will be around for years with the same product so you can get replacement parts etc (though I really don't see parts for sale at Coolights site). I know I sound like a commercial for Coolights, but that is the reality. I love the look of the Coolights and in using them I see why some of the parts and tolerances are so important that I would not trust an eBay manufacturer. For instance the way the housings open and close, there are good and bad ways for that mechanical function to occur and I could see a lot of bad ways. Yes if I could afford the name brands I would have gone that route, but I could not. Used pricing was ridiculous too. Even with all that being said, I have not been impressed by any of the manufactures on how they accomplish the strain relief and the tendency for the power cord insulation to break as it exits the fixture.
 
sign me up for recommending CoolLights as well. great company, great service, and a great (and inexpensive) alternative to other Fresnel lights. I've got a few that I use regularly and I've never had one complaint.
 
One thing you might do to save a bit is to look at Fresnels designed for the theatre industry. Price for price, they're usually cheaper. Brands are totally different in most cases. I do know a couple of theatre designers who use Arris because they like the quality of light, but they have totally different brands to choose from. They take the same lamps, do the same job, but the only real small differences are that in most cases, there won't be a cable switch, and some features are more designed for operation from underneath, on a ladder, in the dark - rather than being on a stand! Things like the colour frame runners - theatre people change gels over and over, so the runners are easier to drop a frame into. I have always needed two hands to change one in an Arri, while theatre types are often just drop in. Arris tend to have nice, clever turn a knob adjustment for beam spread, while theatre types usually have a knob you loosen and slide - or at least attempt to slide, as they get older, stiffer and dust filled, these slides often jam, then suddenly free themselves popping the lamp!

Chinese, Italian, American and UK brands are common, and all do a good job for video purposes at a lower cost than something like an Arris. Theatre users tend to consider 650W as small, and 1.2 and 2K are common. You probably only see a 5K in opera, where one big backlight is a common feature of lighting designs.

Have a look at this european site to see the kit and prices we pay over here.
http://www.thomann.de/gb/fresnel_spotlights.html
 
I purchased 6 or 7 used Mole-Richardsons and 1 used Arri from a variety of sellers on ebay. All were great value. (A few of them were so “used” that I sent them to Mole- Richardson in Hollywood to have them updated. Even with the extra expense they were still cheaper than purchasing new.)

From what I’ve read on the forums, the Cool Lights vendor and his products are highly endorsed.

When you think about what goes into a day’s shoot and how much you rely on your gear simply to work as needed when needed, I’d suggest you try to purchase higher quality equipment. If you can’t afford it, make sure you have back up gear in case something breaks on set.

Good luck.
 
Tungsten lights will not roast talent. They've been in use for decades. When doing interviews i rarely use anything under a 2k and often go straight for a 5K. Much more control when working at a descent stop.

I use only Mole, Arri, Kino etc. There just is no excuse for buying Chinese knockoffs whether it be lights or now grip gear. This includes Coollights.

steve4505 said:
I second the Coolights option. I did a lengthy amount of research and found you really don't know what you are getting with the clones.
Click to expand...

Coollights are all clones made in China. Their direct claim is that they save you money buy cutting out the "middle man." Thats all they are. How are they not middle men when their product is made in China. That's how they save you money. How am i buying from a middle man when i go straight to the guy who built a Mole light and buy from him?

I started my business with a bag of clothes and crashing on a couch and i have never bought a knock-off. Take your time and buy wisely.

Although i have some Arri units (fresnel HMI) i prefer the Mole tungsten fresnels. This is for 2 reasons, First Moles are made in the USA. I still buy USA first. I live on an island and ive seen first hand what happens when you dont support your own industry. Second the Moles are much easier to service. I can rewire a Mole in 10 minutes. You can also buy all the fasteners at the hardware store. The first thing i do is replace all the steel fasteners with stainless. No need to call Arri NY for a "metric cheese-head screw." I also have some ebay babies that are still in use 10 or so yrs later.

Ive had friends buy knockoffs and all have had problems with them. HMI ballasts that are not reliable, LED color that can not be fixed by gelling etc. Buy quality and you can concentrate on what you are really getting into this business to do.
 
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Buy cheap, buy twice.
From an economic perspective, if you get some used Arris or Lowels at a decent price, you should be able to sell them for fairly close to what you bought them for. Try that with the Chinese knockoffs. Chances are that the knockoffs you buy today will be worthless tomorrow, so you can only hope that you get some decent use out of them before they break down or fall apart. For that kind of loss of money, you may as well rent quality gear and have a better, smoother shoot.
 
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