A mic for DVX and a female voice?

N

newbie

Active member
I have some questions about mics for a DVX. I intend to do some documentaries with my wife and I need *hopefully* only two mics, one for the field and one for the studio.

When she is in the field and speaking to the camera, I would like to get an angle that is not wider than 100-130mm (equivalent to SLR film scale) just to get a nice angle. Thus, I´m thinking if a shotgun mic or a wired/wireless lavalier would suit better? A boom pole is not an option....

I have read that Rode is a good producer of mics for the money. I have been listening to e.g. NT-3 and I wonder how it compares to the studio mics? What would you think is best for my needs....and yes, I´m on a budget...but I´m willing to strech my budget if I need to get a decent broadcasting quality. I would be very happy if 1000 euros would be enough for the mics...but as I said I could push it further if necessary.
 
Whoa, calm down. Attitudes like that are not going to really make people want to come and give you answers. I don't translate things into euro's so I am going to do my best to answer your question with a very simple 1:1 conversion...

For your needs I would recommend an AT4073a as a primary shot gun solution. You will get good response having it camera mounted. For the handheld option I would recommend a Shure SM58. It's a cheap mic, will work for hand held interviews, but most importantly, it's a damned tank. For the lav, look at countryman series.
All of these put together will keep you under $1000 USD. That does not include wind protection, shock mounts, cables.

There is a ton of information if you search.
 
Thanks!

Thanks!

Maybe I´m just getting a bit stressed about these things. Since I´m a pretty experienced photographer, I know I can manage with the video, but I know too little about the sound. :embarasse

The thing with the search engine here is that it doesn´t allow 4 letter words. So a "long shotgun" will only search for "shotgun".

I´m fine with prices in $ as things usually cost the same amount in euros. I´m going to take a good look at the AT4073a. How close or far does the subject have to be in front of the camera to get a good sound with this mic mounted on the camera?
 
You could go buy the most expensive shot gun mic ever made and if you're 15' from your subject a $55 AT55 will sound better any day of the week. Simple rules of audio.

Forget the search engine. There are 20 pages of threads on audio. I am not a pro by any means, but what I did is waste an entire eight hour paid day at work and read every thread and learned about audio from other people's thoughts. I just went through and read the threads that interested me. Then I went out bought some **** and had at it.

If you're experienced in the photography then the audio is easy. Trust me, audio is simple compared with the images. I think there are three rules to getting good sound:
#1: Whenever possible use a professional sound person
Reason- cheaper than buying sound equipement, better results, one less thing to worry about
#2: The closer the mic is, the better the sound is
Reason- With shotguns, if you look at the pattern they are narrow to wide; like a shotgun shoots. The farther away you are, the more side noise you get.
#3: Sound is at least 60% of the experience. The most beautiful images are ruined by shitty sound.
Reason: I can't watch some stuff because the sound takes you out of the moment. The kit I suggested is by no means everything, but it is a decent start.

Read, hang about... Actually, right now go read these three threads all the way through and then you'll at least know a lot more:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=21535 (everything i know about mics)
http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=31333 (best & cheapest mic for int.)
http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=22971 (boom mic system)

That should get you a decent start... Knowing is half the battle.

Hang about, read a lot, ask questions, but its all about the attitude. If you throw a hissy fit, no one will step up to help you. I think you can learn everything in the world from these forums, then it just needs to be applied.

Keep us updated as to hurdles you encounter, issues you need help with, and questions youhave. Sounds like an interesting project.
 
Thanks again! I will read these thread you linked. Do you know the distance between the subject and the shotgun, where wireless lavalier mics, like the $500-600 Sennheiser kit will sound better?
 
I'm not a fan of wireless personally. A rule I kinda missed is that whenever possible use a wire.
When you go wireless you get into wind, noise, and clothing rubbing.

In general, avoid wireless unless you need wireless, which for your project, you do not.

Newbie, you're actually in quite a quandry. On the one hand you want to do this yourself without a sound guy, but then you want quality audio. The audio will always sound better closer to the speaker. The problem with your plan is that if you don't use a sound guy you are going to be in the position where the mic needs to be on camera.

I'm sure wherever in the world you are there is the opportunity to get someone to help out and boom for you. Rememeber, film making is not go at it alone, it is a collabrative effort.
 
The main reason why we don´t want to use a sound guy with a boom pole is that would attract too much attension and we want to be as discrete as possible.

So we just want decent sound quality. :)
 
Your best option then might be to do it interview / news style. Have her stand there with a mic hand held, and then do everything else studio voice over style.

You are never going to get perfect sound with a mic mounted on the camera. It's just not going to happen... Even the best mic wont sound good at 9', and I stand by the fact that wireless is not the solution...
 
Newbie... what does 100-130mm focal length translate to in feet or meters from the camera?

If it's just you and her and you gotta' run the camera... and there's nobody else involved this gets narrowed down to three options. SOMEBODY has to take responsibility for the sound.

If it's you (cameraman) then you can cam mount a hyper or shotgun as long as you don't plan to be more then 7' or so away and conversation levels will be normal volume... AND you're willing to accept a mix of natural sound in with your voices. Shooting like this sometimes works great and sometimes is a disaster. It depends on the circumstances. Fortunately documentaries are widely accepted as having more wild sound then a normal production... so for medium close-up and close-up shots this can actually work really well.

If it's your interviewer (wife) taking responsibility for the sound then you can get an ENG stick mic. The most popular one that you see EVERYWHERE is the EV RE50ndb... this means running a wire, unless you get a wireless. While I'm not really a fan of wireless myself, again for documentary some audio problems may be okay... and wireless is never guaranteed... so it's a calculated risk that's up to you to take or pass on. You'll notice that when you watch the news sometimes you see the little cube plug-on at the bottom of the interview mic and sometimes you see a wire running off the screen. Most of the time wireless works decently, but you gotta' have a long wire ready in case it doesn't. You can read all about wireless sets on here, but the bottom line is that you'd want the Sennheiser EK100ENGG2 set for between $520-$600 WITH the plug-on included... which would also allow you to get that Countryman B3 lav for around $185 with accessories... and that leads me to the THIRD option...

The second and third option are somewhat related because the second option requires your wife to HOLD the mic and keep it at her mouth when she's speaking and the subject's mouth when they're speaking... NOT doing that will result in crappy audio. That's also why I said RE50ndb instead of just RE50... you will need a hotter output from the mic since it's dynamic and you'll want it to sound as sensitive as possible. My favorite ENG mic is the AKG D230 and it's nearly as sensitive as the RE50ndb... plus it sounds meatier which compliments male OR FEMALE voices really well... BUT it isn't the industry standard and I like the look of the RE50 on-cam... so I've got both. I like to hear the AKG but I like to see the RE50. (but don't buy both... that's just stupid... prioritize sound or appearance... either one works good enough and looks good enough that you can go either way safely)

Sorry I was supposed to get to the third option!

That is for NEITHER of you to take direct responsibility for the sound (so to speak) and just get a lav on your wife. As I said earlier that would be any of several options. A Countryman B3 is a good choice... and I've used Trams for years... they are super open-sounding and capable of getting a slightly larger bubble of sound. Still, with this option your wife will have to face the person she's speaking to and they can't be more then 4-5' away... then in the edit you'll have to pump the other person's responses for adequate volume. This method would be great if your wife is always really close to the subject, but it can quickly lose it's appeal when the situation gets uncontrolled... and distances are unpredictable.

The other thing about ALL of this is you'll want to get a pair of Sony 7506 headphones (don't ask... just buy... they're ONLY $99 which is a bargain and the cheapest Hollywood standard phones you can get... trust me) you need these on your head pretty much the entire time you're shooting. After you get each setup going and you're sure you like what you hear you can pocket them to be discreet, but I advise keeping them on the entire time if you can. It's surprising how sound can start out good and pretty soon you don't notice it visually, but your wife isn't holding the mic close enough or maybe there's some noise you don't notice that's destroying the audio... or the lav tucked into the jacket and is just rubbing around... lots of bad things happen as a normal occurance with field recording... and if you don't have headphones on you'll go home expecting everything to be great 'cause you checked it at the beginning of the day... and then you'll have a hard night of drinking 'cause the world's against you.

Okay so this should get you 90% of the way there on advice... but if you want REALLY specific mic choices based on the above then please state those distances we talked about... plus the type of documentary work you plan to do.

I've been working on a documentary for over a year now on eating disorders... and it's really controlled interviews with doctors, parents, kids, etc... and so far we've done 80% of it with a hyper, 10% with a shotgun, and 10% with a lav... but it's mostly been interiors so that's why 80% on the hyper.
 
Thanks alot!

Thanks alot!

I will go over the options you mentioned tomorrow when I have more time and try to find what is likely to work out best.

The main tradeoff seems to be between getting a good angle with more distance from the camera and then using a handheld reporter-looking mic vs being close to the camera. As my wife is a scholar and not a reporter, we want to try as possible not to create some reporter-image so my bet is just using a shotgun and stay close.

However, I probably need to get the camera to see how the distances look in the camera and see if I couldn´t make the mounted shotgun work. :beer:
 
Matt,

That was a very clear, well thought out, and thorough answer. Good response, dude! Personally for docu work I think the Sm58 is so much of a tank that it's the best solution for non pros. I have had two of them for about six years and they have been great tools, weapons, and fallic symbols. Just a very solid mic.

Newbie, your shotgun solution will not sound as good as the other options presented. Maybe if you can tell us about where you plan to film, location examples, how many people in the background someone might whole heartedly endorse your shotgun plan, but as of right now, knowing nothing, we can't even agree with your decision not to use a sound guy.
 
The old adage of "Fast, Cheap, Good. You can have any two." applies here.

Too many people think they can have all three.

We all come to the realization (eventually) that once you start making compromises in two different areas, then the results will inevitably tell the tale.

You just can't do fast guerilla shots with no one manning the audio and without using zaxcom wireless systems (or similar) and expect great results. They may happen, or more than likely, they won't.

The best thing to do is to decide what compromises you will make in presentation/framing/blocking of talent in order to facilitate getting acceptable audio results. One of the most disappointing things (IMHO) is to go to all the trouble of setting up a shot, get all your people there, get the lighting right, get your shot without somebody hassling you, and the get back home and realize while listening to the tape that the audio is completely unusable, and will take twice as much work to fix (or shoot over).

The options Matt laid out are sound. Framing your shots so that you are no more than 5' from the talent will work reasonable well with the shotgun, as long as you're not in a loud environment. Putting a lav on the talent(preferably wired) will work reasonably well, too. The tonal quality sounds a little off (but can sound fine with some background noise and a little reverb). I've done this when working without the benefit of a sound person, and it is doable.

Getting someone to do your sound is always best, but for various reasons (budget, need for absolute stealth) not always doable.

Do fill us in on what your requirements are.
 
That's the ultimate problem. You are really trying to get all three of those elements, good, fast, cheap, but you're adding in discreet.

Honestly, after kicking around some thoughts about what little I know about your project, your only solution to get top quality audio is to do voice over style.
Michael Moore uses this in his docu's. The problem is that you want to have a discreet setting, but you want the freedom to move the camera and to get sound. Without a dedicated sound person you are going to run into camera mounted solutions, and there is going to be so much reverb, that even if you invested in the new $1800 Schoeps high end shotgun mic, it will sound like crap.

Because you need to be discreet, then you can't even do the wire and ENG mic.

Voice over man..
 
The problem is that I don´t know exactly how much the environmental noise is going to be and it will probably depend on where we will shoot and at what time of the day etc.

But, I think that noises from the environment would be considered normal. E.g. if you are shooting at crowded places, nobody would expect that you would get a very clean sound nor would I think it would be appropriate.

The major benefit is that if we will fail to get a good sound, we can just try again 3 days later. I don´t think we will encounter some critical moments when the audio must be perfect.
 
But, I think that noises from the environment would be considered normal. E.g. if you are shooting at crowded places, nobody would expect that you would get a very clean sound nor would I think it would be appropriate.
Click to expand...

Fallacy allert!!

This is where audio differs from video, in that it's not as intuitive. What you said is true, but only to a certain extant.

When you hear something live, your brain filters a lot of the background noise out, allowing you even to focus on a conversation taking place across the room during a party. Watching the same scene that was recorded, your brain can't do that. Don't ask me why. Heck, this even happens to people wearing hearing aids, where many patients complain that they don't like their hearing aids because of all the background noise they hear.

Therefore, in order to have the same kind of effect (able to hear the speaker clearly while still hearing some background noise) the speaker has to be much louder(and clearer) in relation to the background noise.

Do overs are always an option (everybody's done them) but having a reasonable plan to minimize them will keep your frustration level down. Scouting out locations ahead of time (at different times of day) will let you know when the traffic/noise will be the least obtrusive.

If your shots are relatively short in length (and don't involve moving around too much) then I still favor a wired lav (with a wireless second choice) for environments that may be somewhat noisy or hard to control. You can set up the shot, and keep the wired connection hidden until the last moment. When you're ready to shoot, plug it in, get the shot, unplug, and get out of Dodge. Just don't forget to get some "room tone" to add in under the track.
 
the 4073a is a kicking mic. you gotta be no more than two feet away though i reckon... i like the sony wireless kits (uwp-C1), but would reccomend buying some country man mics for the transmitter...

the RE50 is the all time most kick ass mic ever - it you can use handheld, use that. it rocks.

heres an interesting solution too:
what about putting one of sennheisers wireless adaptors onto a rifle mic (the 4073a), and using it as a wireless, handheld type thing... better than a cam mic, id guess. note: you would need the PHANTOM POWER enabled adaptor to run the 4073a... just an idea.
 
The more I think of it, the more I think Yankee's idea of doing VO style might be a good thing to consider.

If you don't want to decide ahead of time, get the shots without your wife in them first, recording only background noise. Then get the shots using whatever audio acquisition technique you decide on.

When you edit, if the field audio doesn't cut it, then do the whole piece using VO that you lay down at home in a nice quiet place later. If you don't use the VO style, then all those shots you took without your wife in them will serve good purpose as B-roll.
 
That's the thing. Honestly your no crew + discreet shooting = shitty sound.

Just go the voice over route. It could still be delivered in a nice style. Turn on any of the discovery channel docu's. They are all voice over and they work.

Now studio sound is a science unto itself. You want a good solid cardiod mic and more sound dampening than anything.

The good thing is you can record it right onto the DVX or you can record it straight into sound forge and then just sync it up.

That is your easiest and cheapest solution to get the best quality. Go in post. Plus that way you can concentrate on what you are shooting rather than concentrate on framing your news caster.

Even with the 4073 at the distance you are talking about you are going to have a ton of side noise and it wont sound good. Plus if you're shooting indoors you don't want to use a shotgun anyway, you want to use a hyper cardiod.

To quote John Travolta in Face/Off, 'What a predictament!'

I just don't think this time you can have your cake and eat it too.
 
use e-6 countryman Madonna style mike , very small, looks like usual cellphone external mike , hook it to wireless system and you done , i can guaranty you you can use that setup inside the Indy race and still be good :-)
 
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