?? A couple of unrelated questions

[Jackson Miller]

1) If I had a blimp, would there be any time that I wouldn't use it or is it always useful to have that dead air space? Would it be a good idea for example to have a softie for when the wind is less strong? Or would you just always use the blimp?

2) What would you say is better? A stereo setup of two cheaper mics, or a single higher quality mic? What advantages are there to stereo recording? I thought it was perspective, but the mics are always so close together and sometimes even almost touching when the two mics are put in the same blimp.

3) How would you describe the sound qualities of the Sennheiser 416 (or rode ntg3)?
Is it completely neutral like the Schoeps cmc461 or is it "colored"? Are the highs or lows or mids emphasized? Is the sound smooth? I know this is hard to explain so thanks.

4) How important is it to have a shotgun and a hyper which match closely in the above qualities? Do they have to sound similar? Supposing these are the two main mics you must use? Thanks.

Just trying to learn and absorb like a sponge!

 

[Rippie]

1. My own personal preference is I hate the sound of a mic in a blimp. I can completely hear sound bouncing off of the plastic. (people may think im nuts). I personally prefer the sound coming from a softie, and of course indoor foam is better, just as no windscreen at all is best.

2. single higher quality mic 100%. I rarely do stereo recording in the field.
I did just do a commercial earlier in the week where they wanted location sound of a rock concert crowd but I had to be mobile so I used a sennheiser mkh 60 and mkh30 in an M/S array. But 99.99999% of the time i use 1 mic.

3. the 416 will pull dialog out of the background wonderfully, I wouldnt call it a neutral mic by any means, and its a bit noisy IN MY OPINION. Think of it as having a nice little boost in the upper mid's (i cant remember what the actual boost freq is at since I dont use 416's much at all)

4. you're not going to be swapping shotguns and hypers out in the same scene much. You're more than likely going to choose a mic and play it throughout the scene.
If you do need a little more reach on an extreme wide, you have a lot of other factors which will cause bigger issues than having an exact matching mic. Granted when I say this...im assuming ALL the mics are of the highest quality, but there wont be any more issues than say using lav's (and an open boom for air) on your wides cutting to a schoeps on the CU's.

 

[SMuir]

I'm with Rippie on all but one point: I can't say I've ever noticed sounds bouncing off the plastic of a windshield. That's a new one to me. I will, however, add a couple of minor points:

1) Windjammers, windshields, and foam windscreens all attenuate high frequencies to varying degrees. In general, you'll want to use only as much wind protection as you're going to need, and not more. More wind protection will also make the boom heavier.

2) A single high quality mic is almost always better. Stereo mics are almost never used for dialogue, although they can be handy for music and effects. Hard effects are often better recorded in mono. Furthermore, in many cases it is more useful to record two different perspectives in mono (eg. a door slam from up close and from across the room) than to record one perspective in stereo. Of course, a well-recorded stereo or surround atmosphere track can really add a sense of space to a mix, without getting in the way of the dialogue. In certain applications, a good stereo image can make all the difference in the world.

As for the mics being close together in the blimp, that really depends on the stereo configuration you're using. M-S stereo is easy enough to fit in a blimp, but X-Y and ORTF setups are a bit harder to cram in there. A-B stereo obviously requires two blimps, as does a decca tree. Binaural is just... strange.

If you really want a stereo kit, consider getting a really nice shotgun and hyper in your kit, then adding a comparable figure-8 mic. A `416+MKH30 makes a great kit, but the ability to swap the `416 with an MKH40 or `50 makes it even more flexible.

3) To my ear, the `416 has a more dramatic and articulate sound. Schoeps are beautifully transparent mics, but I often feel they're linear to a fault. A 416'll bring dialogue and effects right into the foreground. It lacks some of the bottom end found in Schoeps mics, but I find that that often leaves the Schoeps sounding a bit dark in comparison. Another big difference is that the `416 will keep going under environmental conditions that cause most condensor mics to simply give up. It can, however, get a bit strident while recording some effects in close (yapping dogs, smashing glass, etc.) That said, its easily my favourite mic.

4) Matching your shotgun and hyper isn't usually a big deal, since they're rarely used in the same shot. Usually the issue is cutting between a boom mic and a lav, which is tricky. I will sometimes boom a wide exterior with an MKH816 and switch to a `416 for the closeups and other coverage, but those mics are very similar (the `816 has a longer interference tube for greater off-axis rejection).

 

[Jackson Miller]

Thanks to both of you!

1) Windjammers, windshields, and foam windscreens all attenuate high frequencies to varying degrees. In general, you'll want to use only as much wind protection as you're going to need, and not more. More wind protection will also make the boom heavier.

So what would be less wind protection then? A blimp with no fur or a softie? Because I would think it would be the blimp, except that softies have fur.

...Furthermore, in many cases it is more useful to record two different perspectives in mono (eg. a door slam from up close and from across the room) than to record one perspective in stereo.

Interesting. Would the two perspectives be overlaid? Or would you choose the perspective you like best later and use only that?

M-S stereo is easy enough to fit in a blimp, but X-Y and ORTF setups are a bit harder to cram in there. A-B stereo obviously requires two blimps, as does a decca tree. Binaural is just... strange.

I literally have no idea what you just said :huh:

If you really want a stereo kit, consider getting a really nice shotgun and hyper in your kit, then adding a comparable figure-8 mic. A `416+MKH30 makes a great kit, but the ability to swap the `416 with an MKH40 or `50 makes it even more flexible.

It would be awesome if you could elaborate on this. So you mean just have all three mics set up recording then? How would they be positioned? I'm afraid I don't really understand the application of a figure eight head mic and a google search isn't helping at all unfortunately. Is it just for ambiance?

Thanks so much.

 

[SMuir]

So what would be less wind protection then? A blimp with no fur or a softie? Because I would think it would be the blimp, except that softies have fur.

The softie's more of a budget alternative to a full zeppelin. A softie will give you more wind protection than a furless blimp, but not quite the effectiveness of a blimp with a windjammer.

Interesting. Would the two perspectives be overlaid? Or would you choose the perspective you like best later and use only that?

If you keep an ear out for phase issues, you can mix between the two mics to achieve a range of perspectives. I should clarify that this kind of perspective recording is more useful in effects gathering than in production dialogue.

I literally have no idea what you just said :huh:

Then my comments about figure-8 mics won't make a lot of sense. M-S (mid-side) is a coincident (ie. the mics are as close together as possible) stereo micing technique that uses a sideways-oriented figure-8 and another mic (omni, cardioid, hyper or shotgun) to create a matrixed stereo image with a controllable width. In the field, I'll record a forward-facing `416 to channel 1 (mid or M) and a sideways-facing MKH30 (+ lobe on the left) to channel 2 (side or S). To decode this matrixed stereo signal, you need only mix M+S to the left channel and M-S (flipping the phase on S) to the right channel. What you're left with is a very realistic stereo image with a strong center and no mono-compatability issues.

So you mean just have all three mics set up recording then?

No, I just load in the mic that's appropriate to the recording task at hand. The blimp diameter I'm using is sized for an M-S setup, so adding a third mic would make it a bit crowded in there, reducing the effectiveness of the wind protection.

 

[Jackson Miller]

Then my comments about figure-8 mics won't make a lot of sense. M-S (mid-side) is a coincident (ie. the mics are as close together as possible) stereo micing technique that uses a sideways-oriented figure-8 and another mic (omni, cardioid, hyper or shotgun) to create a matrixed stereo image with a controllable width. In the field, I'll record a forward-facing `416 to channel 1 (mid or M) and a sideways-facing MKH30 (+ lobe on the left) to channel 2 (side or S). To decode this matrixed stereo signal, you need only mix M+S to the left channel and M-S (flipping the phase on S) to the right channel. What you're left with is a very realistic stereo image with a strong center and no mono-compatability issues.

Hmmm. Ok, so I just did a bunch of reading up on this. So how necessary is it to use a stereo recording setup to achieve pro sounding results? I mean tons of people get by with just a single mic right? I see it in BTS footage all of the time. So how necessary is stereo recording?

And secondly, I was wondering if this technique is used to record dialogue as well? Is it in essence, just adding side recordings to your shotgun or hyper recording? Can this even be used outside with a shotgun or no? But mainly, I am trying to understand if this is used just to pick up ambiance, or is it a way to record the voice, and a natural ambiance simultaneously? Thanks. I am catching on!

 

[Noiz2]

Since it wasn't clear (apparently) from the above posts, as a rule you NEVER want to record dialog in stereo. FX are often recorded in stereo I could probably say mostly and be right. But dialog is essentially never recorded in stereo. If production records "perspectives", those would be on separate tracks and post would decide which to use. As another "rule" FX are not recorded with production. FX (film with a budget) are recorded by FX recordists or editors/ sound designers. The exception to that would I think be some TV shows where your on a VERY tight post schedule and then maybe, a bunch of production FX would end up in the mix. And maybe a doc where your just trying to get as much coverage as poss in a very fluid situation. Even on no budget films I rarely leave in any production FX unless they stepped on something and I can't get rid of them. There are a lot of reasons. One is that the set rarely sounds like it looks. So that "suburban" living room that you shot in your friends apartment under the freeway is not going to end up with any useful sounds other than dialog. Also I have a really large library and generally have a better sounding X than what was on the set. And most "sounds" in a full mix are not single sounds but layers of different sounds that make up when mixed the "sound" you hear. So production is sometimes part of the foundation but very rarely a dominant part.

FX are not usually shot with production because production is just too noisy. If there is a great location I may well show up but I will try to work opposite production, ie I'll record when they are no around. Either different parts of the day or more likely other areas close to the location but far enough away not to hear production. And sometimes we go there after the set has wrapped and moved to a different location. I record probably 99% in stereo, when I'm doing FX. On those semi rare occasions I do production I record mono or multi track mono.

 

[unclebob6958]

As another "rule" FX are not recorded with production. FX (film with a budget) are recorded by FX recordists or editors/ sound designers. The exception to that would I think be some TV shows where your on a VERY tight post schedule and then maybe, a bunch of production FX would end up in the mix.

What is done quite often is that "wilds" are recorded on the set. The sound crew quickly moves through the set after the scene is shot, recording slamming doors, sliding chairs, etc. (It's also a great way to build up your personal sound library.) Also, room tones are recorded. It's not unusual to do dialog wilds as well - the actors performing their lines while not on camera - and they are often much better than ADR as the talent is still in character and the pacing of the scene, and sound matching during post is less of a problem.

FX are not usually shot with production because production is just too noisy.

As a sound designer I like as much control as possible and it all starts with clean dialog tracks. I can add anything that the budget allows, but it can be difficult to take sounds out of the production audio.