744t thoughts

G

ggrantly

Veteran
I have been on the sidelines on some equipment upgrades, some video and others in audio. In this case, I want to upgrade my field recorder and am considering a used 744t. The 744t has been around for quite some time so are there any downsides to the 744t in todays market? I would couple it with my 302 when needed. Is it realistic to record 2 xlr inputs on the 744t and feed the other two channels with the 302? That would give me 5 inputs and 4 channels of record.

TIA
Grant
 
I owned a 744T about 5 recorders ago.
It was a great machine for the time but I think (and it's only my opinion) it would be foolish to spend
2/3's the price of a 633 on one.
Could you make one work? Sure, but you're buying something you're going to have trouble selling even a week later.
A 633 is going to give you way more bang for the buck, in a smaller package to boot.
 
I own a 702, and borrowed a 744T.


Even Vaughn at sound designs admits the 700 series is "dated" however THEY WILL ALSO tell you there is nothing superior, EVEN THEIR own 500 series.


THE DOWNSIDE is , which Sound Designs will NOT tell you is that the CF cards will NOT record reliably above 96K sample at 24bit WAV

you need an external firewire drive for that, also you need their stinking $100 firewire conditioner inbetween them.


The 302 colors the sound a bit much I dont like, also Sound design ADMITS this fact.


I agree with the above, getting the 633 is a much wiser choice



However, even as SoundDevices admit, the 700 series has THE BEST sound of all their recorders, even though they are "dated" technologically. ...and I have found this IS TRUE.



from their site:

552 or 7-Series Recorder?

The introduction of the 552 mixer brings a powerful new feature to field mixers, a high-quality integrated audio recorder. It is unquestionably convenient to have a built-in recorder with a field mixer. With the addition of its recorder, one question that comes up is whether the 552 can be substituted in place of a 7-Series recorder. The short answer is…yes…and no. This article will point out key differences between the recorder in the 552 mixer and Sound Devices 7-Series recorders. Depending on your application, one of these may be more suitable than the other.
Audio Performance

While both the 552 and 7-Series recorders have excellent audio performance, when the lowest noise recording is required, the 7-Series recorders are the choice. The combination of the 7-Series’ extended bandwidth microphone preamplifiers and their high-dynamic range analog-to-digital converters provides increased dynamic range and sensitivity. This translates to lower noise recordings, especially when distant micing low level sound sources. If your microphones can take advantage of the low noise, the 7-Series will outperform them. The 702, 702T, 722, and 744T mic inputs have 114 dB of dynamic range, and the 788T microphone inputs have 123 dB of dynamic range. The figures on the 788T approach the theoretical limit of A-to-D performance.
The 552 is a capable performer, as well. It has 103 dB of dynamic range and is suitable for most applications. Its A-to-D performance is the biggest difference, with the 552 having a bias toward increased power efficiency and the 788T having a bias towards increased performance, especially noise performance. When the widest bandwidth and lowest noise recording is required, choose the 7-Series.
Advantage 7-Series
Input Routing Options

The 552 provides fixed routing options for selecting outputs and input signals for recording. From the factory the left/right outputs are sent to the recorder, perfect for a recording of a dual-mono or stereo mix. Other options are available, including input pairs 1/2 and 3/4, plus combinations of inputs and outputs. The same source selected for recording are available for digital output using the AES A output pair. 552 sound files are always two-track polyphonic WAV files.
7-Series recorders, whether two, four, or eight input, allow any input to be routed to any recording track. This allows any possible routing combination and offers a great deal of flexibility. Additionally, 7-Series recorders can record either monophonic WAV files or poly WAV files.
Advantage 7-Series
Power Consumption

Operational run time from batteries is an important measure for many applications. The 552 mixer and the 7-Series recorders operate off their own internal, or attached power sources. Because of their higher power consumption, the 7-Series recorders operate from larger capacity rechargeable Lithium Ion batteries with 7.4 V nominal voltages. The all-digital topology of 7-Series recorders means that signals are digitized right at the input and are routed through the system digitally. Analog outputs such as line level outputs and headphone outputs are fed from digital-to-analog converters. Often, 7-Series recorders are powered from external DC power sources to extend their runtime.
The efficient 552 operates from four AA-type batteries, consuming similar power as its all analog predecessor, the 442 mixer. Since the 552 is an analog mixer first and a digital recorder second, its power consumption benefits from the reduced burden of this mixed analog and digital topology.
Advantage 552
User Interface / Ease of Use

The UI of the 552′s recorder control and that of the 7-Series is very different. Because recording on the 552 is a secondary function, its recording control is smaller and less prominent on the control surface. Because 7-Series recorders are designed as full featured recorders, their record control is more comprehensive. Both design directions are valid, depending on the application.
Advantage – Tie, since it is product specific

Time Code

The 552 has a time code input connection which is used to stamp sound files with received time code. Time code sent from a camera or a sync box can be connected to the unit as its source. The time code signal is auto-sensed for its time code rate and that time code value and rate is added to the recorded file metadata. There is no time code generator on the mixer.
The 702T, 744T, and 788T are full-features time code devices with high-precision time code generators. They can read external code as well as generate their own code. Their record control can be activated from cameras using the auto-record feature. 7-Series recorders are often used as the master time code source on set and implement Ambient-compatible tuning circuitry to allow multiple units to be tuned for spot-on accuracy.
Advantage – 7-Series Recorders with Time Code
File Management

The 552 has a fixed syntax for file naming and folder generation. A new daily folder is generated each day a recording is made and recordings are saved into the daily folder. Files follow a syntax using date and file number for its file name. For example, a file recorded on August 20, 2009 will have a file name of 09Y08M20-001.WAV. Playback of any recorded file can be done by moving from folder to folder by listening to SVEN say folder names and listening to SVEN state the file number.
7-Series recorders allow for multiple folder options, including project, daily, and scene folders. File names can have any file naming syntax and scene names can be pre-loaded for quick change during recording. Playback of any take is selected from the file view list.
Advantage – 7-Series
File Metadata

Time code and user bit data are text metadata added to the headers of sound files. As the number of tracks and files increases, this text data becomes important and more complete metadata support and management becomes important. The 7-Series recorders support comprehensive BEXT (Broadcast Extension) and iXML metadata. For instance, files from the 788T include track names, notes, and other data which enhances the post production workflow. Metadata values can be changed directly on the recorders using either the units controls or an attached keyboard.
The 552 records Broadcast WAV metadata in every file every time the unit records. If a time code source is connected to the recorder, that time code value is written to metadata. If not, the time-of-day is recorded in the time code value and a note is place in the note field mentioning that time code equals time of day. The 552 has no provision for post-record metadata viewing or editing.
Sound Devices’ own Wave Agent File Utility Software is a helpful tool for viewing and editing metadata from files recorded by both the 7-Series recorders and 552 mixer.
Advantage – 7-Series
Summary

Flexibility is essential for sound mixers. One day may require a single boom with audio sent to camera. The next day may require isos on everything that makes a sound. No matter the application, there is now a way to make high quality recordings. Having a recorder built in to a field mixer has its obvious advantages. For applications requiring more power and flexibility, stand alone recorders are an important tool in the sound mixer’s kit. Let your application be your guide.
 
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Rippie, what are you using instead, do you use a 633? Unfortunately, I can't really do a new 633 and keep the 302, thus I was considering the used 744t at a bit under $2000. I suppose I could chuck my 302 and pony up the $2000+ for the 633, but that only gets me 3 channels. Budgets are a *****.

Grant
 
302>744 is what I had. Still have the 302.
"Downsides to the 744t in todays market."
- Only 2 mic pres and only 4-tracks (if that's an issue). If one needs to ride gain, an ext. mixer is necessary. I bought one new way back when, and took a huge $ loss selling it. In hind site, I probably should have kept it, but I needed funds to finance a Zaxcom camera hop, 664 and a 680 for low budget clients.
 
ggrantly said:
Rippie, what are you using instead, do you use a 633? Unfortunately, I can't really do a new 633 and keep the 302, thus I was considering the used 744t at a bit under $2000. I suppose I could chuck my 302 and pony up the $2000+ for the 633, but that only gets me 3 channels. Budgets are a *****.

Grant
Click to expand...
The 633 has 6 inputs, 10 tracks not just 3 channels.
There is absolutely zero need to keep the 302. Between the money you'll get for the 302 and the money you were going to put into
a 744T you're pretty damn close to paying for the 633, which is far superior sound wise in my opinion.

Currently I have a 664 and a 633 and I'm completely content, whether using them for cart work or bag (although my cart work is looking more and more like bag work these days)

One thing I've learned through all the years of buying audio gear.
Buy while it's still current, sell it before it becomes obsolete.
If you don't you're going to be sitting on a lot of equipment no one wants and you're going to take a loss on it.
That's why in my opinion buying older pieces of gear like the 744 is just a bad investment.
 
For those who are unaware, the 663 has three (3) mic preamps, the other three (with smaller knobs) are line level only.. and unfortunately do not a lot of usable gain for devices with less than nominal +4dB.. (Sennheiser G2/3 and Lectro 211/411 receivers for instance) This is a common complaint that SD has not addressed.. or commented on for that matter.

"although my cart work is looking more and more like bag work these days"
> Same here Rippie, I usually keep the bag on the cart these days and integrate the systems, so I can pick-up and go with 'minimal' fuss.
 
Thanks Rick,

That was one of my concerns with the 633 is only 3 preamps, so keeping the 302 to add some inputs was what I imagined, but makes this setup a budget buster for me. This process is a bit frustrating as each piece of gear I look at solves some but not all of my wants unless I spend big bucks. I am clearly going to have to separate my wants from my needs.

I started off wanting more mixer channels, some mixer recording capability, though I prefer to record to cam for the most part, I wanted some backup. Though the recorder is only two channels of not superior quality, I was really thinking a 552. It gives me 5 channels of great preamp, a modest backup recorder and fits my budget buying used. But I just hate SD cards compared to CF. If I really need more tracks, I can solve that another way. Then my gear lust kicked in….. I'm sure you have all been there.

I'm not a full time sound guy, but want to have enough gear to easily support my modest video business. If I get into something big, I would be hiring audio out so 4 good channels will cover most things I do. The 7 series is known to still have great audio quality, adds time code, and the 744t would seem to fit well with my 302 even if it is a dated solution.

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts. I should probably just sit in a dark and quiet place, pick an option and not second guess myself because all the options will work well enough to improve my workflow.

Grant
 
Rick R said:
For those who are unaware, the 663 has three (3) mic preamps, the other three (with smaller knobs) are line level only.. and unfortunately do not a lot of usable gain for devices with less than nominal +4dB.. (Sennheiser G2/3 and Lectro 211/411 receivers for instance) This is a common complaint that SD has not addressed.. or commented on for that matter.

"although my cart work is looking more and more like bag work these days"
> Same here Rippie, I usually keep the bag on the cart these days and integrate the systems, so I can pick-up and go with 'minimal' fuss.
Click to expand...

While I can't speak for G2/G3's having rarely used them, lectrosonics receivers have plenty of gain for the 633/664.
Is this really a "common" complaint? They replaced/updated the 302 with the 633 and did the ol' 3 preamp thing but gave the bonus 3 channels
which most people weren't expecting.
Since this IS a bag mixer/recorder and not something that is "designed" for say music recording I don't see much need for more than 3 mic in's personally, and I guess
Sound Devices agrees.
Can't have everything in one box. If I need more than 3 I jump to my 664.
 
ggrantly said:
Thanks Rick,

That was one of my concerns with the 633 is only 3 preamps, so keeping the 302 to add some inputs was what I imagined, but makes this setup a budget buster for me. This process is a bit frustrating as each piece of gear I look at solves some but not all of my wants unless I spend big bucks. I am clearly going to have to separate my wants from my needs.

I started off wanting more mixer channels, some mixer recording capability, though I prefer to record to cam for the most part, I wanted some backup. Though the recorder is only two channels of not superior quality, I was really thinking a 552. It gives me 5 channels of great preamp, a modest backup recorder and fits my budget buying used. But I just hate SD cards compared to CF. If I really need more tracks, I can solve that another way. Then my gear lust kicked in….. I'm sure you have all been there.

I'm not a full time sound guy, but want to have enough gear to easily support my modest video business. If I get into something big, I would be hiring audio out so 4 good channels will cover most things I do. The 7 series is known to still have great audio quality, adds time code, and the 744t would seem to fit well with my 302 even if it is a dated solution.

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts. I should probably just sit in a dark and quiet place, pick an option and not second guess myself because all the options will work well enough to improve my workflow.

Grant
Click to expand...

So I have to ask, what situations do you find yourself in that you need more than 3 mic pre's going (6 inputs), and does it happen often enough to justify going a totally different direction in equipment?
Once again, buying a 552 is a bad investment but good luck with whatever you decide to do.
 
Personally, I rarely use more than two preamps, 1 or 2 booms and the rest, line level wireless ISOs. Just stating the facts of (only) three mic preamps on the 663 others may not have been aware of.
Quite a few folks over on the JW group have questioned the lack of gain on some of the SD line inputs.
 
That's interesting to hear bout people having lack of gain issues. I'll have to look into that a bit more.
If anyone does buy the 633, I had a petrol bag for it but bought the k-tek bag last week for it.
While definitely not a perfect bag it's a much much better solution for myself.
 
Rippie said:
So I have to ask, what situations do you find yourself in that you need more than 3 mic pre's going (6 inputs), and does it happen often enough to justify going a totally different direction in equipment?
Once again, buying a 552 is a bad investment but good luck with whatever you decide to do.
Click to expand...

Well for starters…

Just now, my bag recorder is a 680. It got me this far, and though I'm usually satisfied enough with the audio, it is what it is, and I mostly want something with better build quality, better power plug, and more recording output options. It will become my stepchild backup.

Although two channels will do for most video work, more would be welcome because I am planning on doing some small venue acoustic music recording. I don't want to assemble an audio cart or anything high profile; want to keep the battery power option and maybe even keep it bagged. Four channels of great quality is a nice number to start. Although I could still use the 680 for this, I'd prefer to upgrade so a 302 + 744 is a decent option. I get TC out of the deal as well.

As a compromise - alternative, a 552 would give me a great 5 channel mixer (+ preamps) and a decent recorder for two channel video. I probably wouldn't have hesitated to just do this (552s are pretty available just now) except I have a pretty visceral dislike for anything using SD cards. The 552 could then used to feed the 680 or possibly a laptop recorder when better quality or or more channels than the 552 recorder were needed. I might note that with the 552, I could sell my 302 and get out of the whole deal for under $1000 which is a nice number. Maybe I'll get over myself on the SD card issue.

So most of the time I don't need four tracks, but I want to upgrade my recorder build quality and a 744t are going for about the same price as a 702. A 633 would be nice for sure, Those three channels would easily get me through most projects and it is a pretty upscale option. But I'd also have to keep the 302 to get more than three channels = budget blaster, especially since there aren't really any used 633s to be had.

Although I might sell a device like the 552 or 744 someday, either one has a place going forward, there wouldn't be that much to lose at around $1700 for either device in the used market.

I hope others might benefit from beating this quandary to death <8-)
 
First, I'm not quite getting why you would dismiss any product because it uses SD cards. DSLR's, recorders blah blah blah use SD cards of course, and obviously quite well.
I don't get that comment at all.

I'm also a bit confused how on one hand you mention a 744T and it's 4 tracks and time code would be great
and then you mention a 552 that is only 2 tracks and can't generate time code.
Then mention the possibility of a 744T and a 302, yet creating a mix of 5 channels isn't possible with that setup.

My suggestion to you is sit down and really figure out your needs are, your deal breakers, and things you can live/deal with.
Then start seeing what equipment matches up.

Good luck trying to sell a 552 or 744T NOW let alone in a couple/few years. There's a reason why there are 7+ of them
on trew audio's site alone at the moment.

edit: sorry if that sounded harsh. Wasn't meant to be.
 
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I probably haven't expressed myself clearly, so apologies if I have confused anyone.

"First, I'm not quite getting why you would dismiss any product because it uses SD cards. DSLR's, recorders blah blah blah use SD cards of course, and obviously quite well.
I don't get that comment at all"

Persoanal preference, no more no less. In the video world, they are pretty unloved.

"I'm also a bit confused how on one hand you mention a 744T and it's 4 tracks and time code would be great
and then you mention a 552 that is only 2 tracks and can't generate time code.
Then mention the possibility of a 744T and a 302, yet creating a mix of 5 channels isn't possible with that setup"

The 522 would be a compromise on tracks (only 2) but I could use the mixer-preamps to feed line level into the 680 and or my traveler mk3 and laptop. The 552 2 track recorder would suffice for most of my video work where I wanted dual system. At least it would improve my day to day function. And it can be jammed with TC.

The 744 can record two tracks without a mixer right? It has a very decent looking set of LED meters and of course the 7 series preamps. The 302 could feed 3 inputs into the other two channels. Is there some reason this is faulty thinking?

OK, there is my thinking, right or wrong. I appreciate the comments from you all, it helps me refine what is or isn't important, separating my want from my needs.

G
 
Yes the 552 can use external time code, but it can not generate on it's own so you can't simply jam and disconnect.
So to use it that way would require an external lockit box.

Yes the 744T/302 could record the way you mention but what happens when you need to deliver a mix of those 5 inputs?
Not everyone wants strictly iso's, actually most dont in my experience. They want a good mix at the very least during the video edit.

Still not understanding the SD thing since you are literally talking about the shape of the media at this point, but no need to go farther with that.
 
Rippie said:
That's interesting to hear bout people having lack of gain issues"
Click to expand...
> It's not to the point of being unusable.. more of an annoyance..

Other comments:

ggrantly said:
I'd prefer to upgrade so a 302 + 744 is a decent option. I get TC out of the deal as well..
Click to expand...
> Yes, but TC by itself does not guarantee sync, especially on long takes and... 'quirky' cameras... The extras.. TC slate, lock-boxes ect., can easily cost several thousand more.. even more for tri-level system

ggrantly said:
I have a pretty visceral dislike for anything using SD cards
Click to expand...
> I'm not fond of the small size, (easy to lose or misplace) performance wise, I haven't had many problems.. I've also had hard drives crap out.
 
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"Yes the 744T/302 could record the way you mention but what happens when you need to deliver a mix of those 5 inputs?
Not everyone wants strictly iso's, actually most dont in my experience. They want a good mix at the very least during the video edit."

FWIW, I work alone or with only a pinch hit helper 90% of the time. I never deliver anything to anyone except my finished product. Maybe someday I'll grow to the point of more collaboration, but for now, audio for me is to support my own video projects.

G
 
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