4K at 10Mbit/sec - Red Ray

A phenomenal achievement. 4K off of regular DVD-R's. No licensing hassles with the blu-ray association, etc (presumably).

Of course, I can't wait for the whiners to come in and say "$1,000!??!?! Are you freaking kidding? It plays using regular DVDs, it should cost no more than $29 like any DVD player."
 
$1,000!??!?! Are you kidding? It plays regular DVDs, it should cost no more than $50 dollars like any other DVD player!

Sorry - I really couldn't resist. But that is exteamly interesting. And more interesting, not from the Red webpage either. I am interested in the upconvert process though. It is upconverting...right?
 
Mattykins said:
$1,000!??!?! Are you kidding? It plays regular DVDs, it should cost no more than $50 dollars like any other DVD player!

Sorry - I really couldn't resist. But that is exteamly interesting. And more interesting, not from the Red webpage either. I am interested in the upconvert process though. It is upconverting...right?
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Bah upconverting, even 2K upped at 4K looks horrible :badputer::Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)
 
hawaj said:
Bah upconverting, even 2K upped at 4K looks horrible :badputer::Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)
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Well, thats my question. I don't get how it works from standard DVDs. I've seen upconverted stuff and it looks like "supervideo". With the PS3 upconvert on an HDTV, it takes all filmic qualities out of the originating DVD. How they managed to make a DVD look so ugly, I don't know.

Which is why I can't seem to wrap my head around the RedRay.
 
Regular DVDs use MPEG-2. Red Ray doesn't. It's using the DVD-ROM as a data disc, and storing 4K RedCode compression on it, at a bandwidth of 10mbps.

So it has nothing to do with standard definition, or upconverting, or mpeg-2, or any of that. It's a 4K codec storing 4K data at an extreme compression ratio (700:1).
 
Just wavelets, but extremly well tweaked by Graeme.

from Engadget discussion:

"Wavelets are mathematical construct from 80's (by some French mathematicians if I remember correctly) that are basis of an approach to decomposition of some object into many layers, with the most rough one first and progrressively finer details coming after. And it so happens that human perception gives most attention to the largest details and less to smaller ones. Therefore you can heavily compress or eliminate small details while leaving big stuff mostly intact. It's the basis for JPEG2000 which is way more efficient than old JPEG but unfortunately never took off.

One thing you're right though, it IS rocket science. The math is nasty even though principles are not. But the funny thing is, it is trivially easy to decompose something using wavelets - you only need multiplication and addition. Computationally simple.

I created a simple program as a term project for a graduate subect to decompose a grayscale image into wavelets. That was a decade ago. I never understood why this approach never gained more popularity in images and video, at least not more rapidly. Perhaps because the math is nasty or because comittees move slowly."
 
A very cool idea, but not too useful unless RED makes their codec available via a Free Software license and forgoes patents. Otherwise you'd still have to pay RED to license the patents, the same way you'd have to with Blu-Ray. At least there isn't a AACS license involved, though.

In order for a competing high-def delivery format to be viable, it will have to be openly available. Anybody that tries to replace Blu-Ray with something technologically superiror, but still prohibitively expensive to impliment will likely fail.
 
Ok say we have the player, what does one watch it on?
TV's or projectors are still limited to 1920x1080 res. It would have to be downrezzed to watch it on any current form of projection.
 
I doubt that Red is going for a BD-type consumer product. I just don't see them being able to market that. One thing is spreading the buzz about Red One, to all of us nerds on the web. Something else entirely to market to the worldwide consumer market like Sony does.
 
TwistedLincoln said:
A very cool idea, but not too useful unless RED makes their codec available via a Free Software license and forgoes patents. Otherwise you'd still have to pay RED to license the patents, the same way you'd have to with Blu-Ray. At least there isn't a AACS license involved, though.

In order for a competing high-def delivery format to be viable, it will have to be openly available. Anybody that tries to replace Blu-Ray with something technologically superiror, but still prohibitively expensive to impliment will likely fail.
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It won't be another HD delivery that really has to compete with BD.

IMHO BD is here to stay but I believe the Physical medium itself will fail with solid state technology getting better all the time.

For instance, most new DVD players and even car sound systems have SD cards slots or some form of USB interface now,,,,, this marks the "Death" of optical drives and discs as we know them now.

One of my friends has used his DVD players eject button once since he's had it. Soon with internet getting to crazy speeds, you'll just download you fav movie or whatever in glorious 1080, save it to a high speed USB 3 disc and stick into your player or straight into your TV for playback.

DISCS ARE SOON TO BE DEAD.

I've been using solid state drives and cards for months now and won't look back. Who in hell wants to burn a BD movie onto a $40 disc that takes forever to burn and if it gets scratched it won't play?

So my rant being said,,, whoever challenges the BD thing is stupid. Maybe Toshiba saw the writing on the wall,,,,, this could bite Sony on the bum big time, they are all trying to re-invent the wheel with non practical self indulgent technology. Red needs to look where the real technolgy is,,, what the Japs are doing.
 
shaun1970 said:
One of my friends has used his DVD players eject button once since he's had it. Soon with internet getting to crazy speeds, you'll just download you fav movie or whatever in glorious 1080, save it to a high speed USB 3 disc and stick into your player or straight into your TV for playback.

DISCS ARE SOON TO BE DEAD.
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I don't agree. With bandwidth caps becoming more prevalent, downloading movies may end up getting quite expensive. And it still takes a long time to download multiple gigabytes. One day we will probably just stream our HD (and Super HD) movies over the 'net, but that's a long time coming.

whoever challenges the BD thing is stupid. Maybe Toshiba saw the writing on the wall,,,,,
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Blu-ray has major studio support. Red Ray is interesting, but I doubt they'll get much interest above a niche product. Not having seen the demonstration, I cannot attest to the quality, but I think an HD-branded disc is far more marketable than 4K-branded discs. The vast majority of consumers wouldn't even know what 4K is, even if they are familar with HD.
 
subtleinspiration said:
I don't agree. With bandwidth caps becoming more prevalent, downloading movies may end up getting quite expensive. And it still takes a long time to download multiple gigabytes. One day we will probably just stream our HD (and Super HD) movies over the 'net, but that's a long time coming.



Blu-ray has major studio support. Red Ray is interesting, but I doubt they'll get much interest above a niche product. Not having seen the demonstration, I cannot attest to the quality, but I think an HD-branded disc is far more marketable than 4K-branded discs. The vast majority of consumers wouldn't even know what 4K is, even if they are familar with HD.
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Put it this way, at present I've got a 20mbps connection,,, I average consistently a down speed of 1.4mbps with a line speed of around 14 to 15mbps,, this is off good servers. Next year or two Australia is going to roll out a new fibre optic high speed network at 100mbps at your door and cheap. At the moment i'm paying $39 a month (15 gig limit) and its fast.

I'm interested to see what bandwidth caps you are talking about cause here in oz were are advancing with our internet technologies. Faster speeds, more bandwidth and cheaper pricing.

I think its closer than you believe. and i've hijacked this thread sort of and takin it on another tangent, so enough of this chat and back to what I said earlier.

Why have a 4k player if you can't project it, so why downrezz ( my guess is what happens in the player for viewing on a big screen) and defeat the purpose of having 4k in the first place??
 
subtleinspiration said:
I don't agree. With bandwidth caps becoming more prevalent, downloading movies may end up getting quite expensive. And it still takes a long time to download multiple gigabytes. One day we will probably just stream our HD (and Super HD) movies over the 'net, but that's a long time coming.
Click to expand...

really? i'm doing it right now. literally as i type this, a movie is streaming in HD over the web from netflix to my xbox360 and playing back flawlessly. looks almost as good as blu ray. way better than dvd. discs are on the way out.
 
BD will become a storage medium if you wish and not used for viewing films,, it'll be that way soon than later and before it even gets close to where DVD sits now.

Next year the release of new era SD cards will be available,,, 2TB and within a few more years we will se 4 to 8TB SD storage. BD will be gone before its seen its 10th birthday and whatever other disc formats that try to make the cut.
 
cheezweezl said:
over the web from netflix to my xbox360 and playing back flawlessly.
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Is the sound syncing? That's been a problem with some titles for me.

Anyway, this is pretty awesome if it can reach the saturation that DVDs have. That's all I'm looking for--a cheap storage medium to get the client's product to them.
 
shaun1970 said:
At the moment i'm paying $39 a month (15 gig limit) and its fast.
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And how many HD movies can you get a month with that 15 gig limit?

I'm not talking about Flash 720p video. I'm talking the full on AVC or MPEG-2 1080 video with a far higher bitrate than what you are seeing in video. Is it coming? Certainly. In the next decade? Closer to the end of it, or even beyond.
 
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