hscully
Veteran
well said +1
4K and AF200 not on the table... for now anyway.
- Thread starter bgundu
- Start date
well said +1
From a photographic perspective closing down 1 stop = 1/2 the exposure, and closing down 2 stops = 1/4 the exposure.
...But you're saying this doesn't apply when converting SN ratio measured in dB to photographic EV stop values ?
From a photographic perspective, 1/4 of the exposure is a 2 stop difference.
Barry_Green
Moderator
It's 6dB per stop. SamuelH was right.
Barry_Green
Moderator
That's what I was getting at. I don't know what they'll do, but I sincerely doubt they're going to do a "me too" and try to release something to compete with a C300, etc. They'll do something new where they're first. Can't imagine what, but that's their history, that's their modus operandi. When everyone else was shoveling 25-megabit long-Gop 4:2:0 MPEG2 on a DV tape with half-second dropouts, they put out 100-megabit intraframe 4:2:2 on solid state. Can they do something like that again? I don't know. I can't imagine what they'd do. But I would bet that they are going to try.It almost seems that the broadcast division and consumer division trying to share that m4/3 sensor isn't working out. Panasonic has a history of creating industry "firsts", and just getting into the 4K now and offering the same thing as everyone else isn't their thing. The BMC could have been the Panasonic ground breaking camera. I guess they're back in the lab designing the next best thing
Thanks, I confirmed this.
So we are talking about a potential 14.6 stops of dynamic range with this new sensor.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Agreed; been clamoring for that since the AF100 was first announced.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Yep, which is still a heck of a lot. That's a ratio of about 25,000 to 1, more than it's said the human eye can handle.
Samuel H
Major Contributor
I would say that, today, the analogous thing would be CineForm RAW
You are confusing the change in light level with the power density ratio that change represents. If you reduced an exposure by half, or 1 stop, this is how it translates to dB 20*log(1/2)= -6dB. A dB scale expresses a logarithmic power ratio between 2 known values. The 20log multiplier reflects how human senses respond to change in stimulus and is consistent for hearing and vision. Our photographic systems have been designed to respond in a similar manner. If you reduced the average foot candle illumination of a scene by half, your eyes and the camera should respond to the change in a nearly identical manner.
Thanks for the detailed explanation. ( makes more sense now )
Provided the price is right, preferably at or below that of the AF100A. I mean, the Canon C300 is a good camera, but not $14,000 good.
filmguy123
Veteran
Barry I'm going to have to disagree with you here. I don't care when the AF100A came out, it was too little too late. It's a non-issue regarding when someone should "expect" a follow-up to the AF100. The AF100a should have been an AF200, seeing as how the AF100 came out in 2010. It's been 2.5 years, which would have been stretching it for an acceptable follow-up launch. Instead we got an AF100a?
"Historic" camera development turn around times are irrelevant today. Past patterns and time-frames don't mean much today; this is a unique time in camera development where the game has changed, the rules have changed, and the technology driving innovation and change is different. The underlying technology making camera advancements possible is progressing and developing rapidly, at a break-neck pace.
I'm looking forward to what Panny does next and love my AF100, but the bottom line is they ARE late to the game and it's NOT unrealistic to expect them to develop top-notch, competitive new cameras at a quicker pace. The AF100a was a minor and disappointing update even if it had come sooner.
Whatever comes next, they better have not just an "answer" to the FS700 and Blackmagic cameras, but a BMC/FS700 *killer*. Much better DR and IQ. M43 and S35 options. 4k. 240fps non-burst. 1080p built-in LCD. Straight to ProRes recording. With all the ND/XLR/Video features of AF100... etc. etc.
pulpfiction007
Veteran
And what do you suggest they charge for a camera that has way more features than a Canon C100?
Steve Kahn
Well-known member
What is so bizarre about Panasonic is that they didn't just put the GH3 (or GH2) sensor into a video toaster box (as they did with the GH1 chip) with the GH3 better codecs. That seems like a winner much more than the 100A.
But let's be honest. These aren't the days when no one is making the modern day equivalent of HD or 24p anymore. There are tons of great options and many more coming even with Panasonic video on the sidelines.
But let's be honest. These aren't the days when no one is making the modern day equivalent of HD or 24p anymore. There are tons of great options and many more coming even with Panasonic video on the sidelines.
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filmguy123
Veteran
$8K or less. Probably $6.5k. Yes, that's do-able and likely with about the same profit margins as the AF100. In fact, really the only costs past an AF100 are sensor related. 1080p LCDs have dropped in price dramatically thanks to mass production on smartphones. Straight to ProRes recording is only a bandwidth and storage issue that has been solved. High FPS is a processing/bandwidth issue that has also been "solved" - even a GoPro can do 120fps at AVC codecs. The FS700 has most of these features for under $8K and was released a year ago.
Don't compare cost to either (A) other offerings on the market or (B) historic camera costs "i.e. that feature set would have cost 100K 5 years ago!".
It's not 5 years ago, and the C100 is over-priced. Not from a business perspective - companies want to maintain an expensive high end offering, but the actual costs of the hardware to make this possible are not prohibiting far lower price points. Companies likes Blackmagic are showing that, and in fact forcing that.
I've shot with the AF100 and the Hyperdeck shuttle, and I think that the image is pretty awesome for HD Production. Would I have liked to have an updated AF100 that used P2 Cards? Yes. Even if it was DVC Pro HD, it would have been nice. Even if that camera was $3000 more than the current AF100, I would have purchased it. Unfortunately, it's becoming too late for that update to be relevant in today's market. I have interviewed for a TV film and an independent film recently, and they require 4K. So it just seems like Panasonic is really falling behind. I love the products, just sad to see that Blackmagic, Red and Arri are pulling away with the 4K market right now and Panasonic is falling further and further behind.
Barry_Green
Moderator
What is your engineering or manufacturing background for making such claims?
At risk of incurring wrath -- announcements are not shipments. BlackMagic has announced several cameras, but shipped very few. When BlackMagic can change the actual pace of introduction and production and actually get products on the market when they say they will, and refresh them at the pace you say they will, then you may have a point. Until then, I submit that companies like Red, BlackMagic, and now even Sony, have confused or are confusing people's perception of timelines. Because they announce something that's coming long before it does, and then they announce changes or updates to products long before they're available (and in Red's case, they announced Dragon upgrades to the Epic before you could even buy an Epic), I think it's skewing people's ideas of the actual pace of development. Professional video cameras aren't really coming out that much faster than they used to. It just seems that way because there's wave after wave of announcements.
To wit:
The FS100 was first offered for sale in March of 2011. It is now June of 2013. There has been no FS100A, no FS200. It is the same product that it was when it was first introduced. There is no new, refreshed product in Sony's lineup at the same price point.
The Red Epic was first offered for sale December of 2010. It is now June of 2013. There is no Epic II, or Epic III, or EPIC A. It is the same product that it was when it was first introduced, although they have introduced a sensor upgrade.
The BlackMagic was first announced in April of 2012. It is June of 2013, and there is no BlackMagic Cinema Camera II, and -- heck, I haven't even kept up with them, have they even gotten to the point where they first version is readily available yet?
The Canon C300 was first delivered in January 2012. It is June of 2013 -- is there a C300A? Is there a C350? No, of course not. The same product is still offered.
(note: yes there are other models in the manufacturer's lineup; there's an announced blackmagic pocket camera, and there's an announced 4K, but that's not the same thing as a replacement model for what's existing! There's also an FS700 but that isn't an FS100 Mark II, and there's a C500 but that's not a C300A, etc). And the blackmagic pocket and 4K cameras aren't available yet either. There is supposed to be an m43 model of the bmc shipping soon, but is that really a follow-up? It's just a mount modification, isn't it?
I'm talking about updated models here. Not new models at new price points. I'm talking about GH2 to GH3, that type of thing -- basically a replacement for an existing model. Like the AF100A was to the AF100, or the VX2000 was to the VX1000.
Point being: the pace of refreshing existing models has NOT really increased -- for anyone. As the old adage says -- you can't make a baby in one month by throwing nine women at the problem. Stuff takes time to develop. Even GoPro took two years between the Hero2 and the Hero3...
Hmmm. I think that is called making excuses........bgundu said:
It's not really a very logical position. The general feeling is that the 4k market for acquisition is only going to grow, and a 4k product is obviously capable of giving a very good 1080 image - the opposite is not true.His argument is a bit like someone saying in the 1920's that the new automobile industry has too much competition in the market and is saturated - so they are going to concentrate on trading horses! OK, they could be secretly working on the "horseless carriage to end horseless carriages", but it's more likely the longer they stay out of the automobile industry, the less money they get to fund development, and the more difficult it becomes to later get established. Here, even if buyers may not actually need 4k at the moment, if you're getting a new camera now it makes a lot of sense to get one that is at least 4k capable, allows for an upgrade route.
He is also directly contradicting what Panasonics president of the company's imaging division (Kunihko Miyagi), was publicly quoted as saying. See - http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/behind-screen/nab-panasonic-promises-everything-we-437031 They can't both be right, can they?
And whilst the Panasonic approach worked very well indeed for some, for others it didn't. The cost of cards at the time meant that for anybody into long form work - anybody who needed at least about 3 hours of recording time without having to download - the HVX200 was a non-starter.
I consider the HVX200 a huge missed opportunity for Panasonic. If they had made it P2/DVCProHD *AND* HDV (it had the tape deck, after all) then it would have cleaned up. At the time, the HVX200 was better suited to some jobs, the Z1 was better suited to others (such as long form). If Panasonic had put HDV into the HVX200 (yes, as well as DVCProHD) it's difficult to see why anybody would have bought the Z1 in preference. With the dual modes, you'd use whatever was most appropriate to the job at the time.
I asked exactly this question at the time and the only answer that came back was "we're not adopting HDV". The issue wasn't an either/or choice, or shouldn't have been, it would have been far better strategically to go for both.
filmguy123
Veteran
Barry this is true to a certain extent... but you exaggerate the point quite a bit.
A couple notes: GoPro released the Hero 3 only a year after Hero 2. Blackmagic camera is readily available. To make the point more so: Both of these companies are new to hardware and camera world. Panny has been at this for a LONG time. Which means they have the resource and experience and should be able to easily outpace these small guys. But they aren't.
All of these companies you mention (Sony, GoPro, BM, RED, etc.) have been far more active in the large sensor camera wars. Sure, no Epic II or FS100a or BMC II is out - but that's not because they've been doing nothing. They've been releasing the Scarlet, FS700, and BMC 4K. And to be fair, you say about RED "although they have released a sensor upgrade" as if to downplay that. That IS their business model - MODULAR. Why would they release a new metal body when every piece of that design is modular... point is, releasing a sensor upgrade is a big deal. Sure, Panny's released some cameras... but nothing of note in the large sensor prosumer range where it really counts for all of us. And as for the cameras that have only been announced... pretty sure they will be released and fully available well before Panny even gets around to ANNOUNCING something. Hope I'm wrong.
As far as my engineering or manufacturing background to understand technology, prices, and cameras? While I know quite a fair deal, you also don't need to be a camera engineer or work in manufacturing to understand in depth what makes up the various parts of a digital camera and what bottlenecks there are in camera design. We all know frame-rate and codec limitations are separate from sensor issues. We all know companies withhold software based features to market at different price points. And we all know there are various costs associated with R&D time, marketing, economies of scale VS niche markets, etc.
And while I have a very good understanding of the technology behind this and a strong awareness of the associated hardware costs, one thing even a layman can understand now is this: A Sony FS700 @ $8K in 2012 now means that the bar has been set: An S35 sensor, 4K, 240fps, ND Filters, XLR, etc. is now defined as an $8K pricepoint in 2012. Max.
I fully expect a 2014 camera from Panny to blow that feature-set and price point out of the water. Not just because it's 2 years later, but because Sony has done some stupid things with their camera: forced use of propriety SSD recording rather than anything I can pickup from Newegg. Money grab. Lame. Why lock off codec support when the bandwidth is there? Let us record ProRes in camera. Software lock on VFR options such as 36, 44, 48fps etc.? Until you spend thousands more on next model up? Lame. It's a software switch. I hope Panny really comes through for consumers and doesn't play stupid games like this, and gives us the absolute best camera they can deliver at an industry leading price. That doesn't make us choose between high FPS recording and all-in-one features of the FS700, and no-games straight to ProRes/use an brand SSD on Blackmagic.
Look, nothing against Panny. They make great cameras. But let's no pretend they're not behind the game here. 2.5 years without any entry into the large sensor camera format. A pretty lame af100a update 2+ years later. Whatever they're cooking up better exceed expectations. If it does then I'll be happy to buy what they sell. I can't hold off more than another year though, the AF100 is starting to age. I love panny's ergos and color profiles etc. I've been with them for DVX, HVX, and AF100.
And I'm not one of those guys complaining about specs and cameras and not shooting. I shoot weekly, and the AF100 can still produce some great results. I shot this recently in India on the AF100: https://vimeo.com/63946714 // But it's more than time for a knock-out AF100 successor as well as an S35 model for those who desire the larger sensor.
AF200:
Greatly Improved IQ/DR sensor
Better resolution - 2.5-3K
1080p LED LCD
120fps burst-free recording; 240fps recording (burst free?)
Better codec options for straight to SD recording
4-channel audio (2x XLR + internal mics backup, as the HVX200 allowed)
Optional module for attachment: MicroP2/Any-brand SSD recording for straight to ProRes
No cheap software limitations (full VFR, timelapse, multi-codec support, focus assists, etc.)
Free Firmware software updates that add additional support and features throughout camera lifespan
All-in-one AF100 features i.e. focus assists/waveform/ergos/XLR/ND filters/etc.
~ $5.5-$6K
S35 Model:
All features above @ S35 sensor + 4K resolution
Adaptable mount options
Better in-built SSD/MicroP2 recording options
RAW recording
~ $7.5-$8k
A couple notes: GoPro released the Hero 3 only a year after Hero 2. Blackmagic camera is readily available. To make the point more so: Both of these companies are new to hardware and camera world. Panny has been at this for a LONG time. Which means they have the resource and experience and should be able to easily outpace these small guys. But they aren't.
All of these companies you mention (Sony, GoPro, BM, RED, etc.) have been far more active in the large sensor camera wars. Sure, no Epic II or FS100a or BMC II is out - but that's not because they've been doing nothing. They've been releasing the Scarlet, FS700, and BMC 4K. And to be fair, you say about RED "although they have released a sensor upgrade" as if to downplay that. That IS their business model - MODULAR. Why would they release a new metal body when every piece of that design is modular... point is, releasing a sensor upgrade is a big deal. Sure, Panny's released some cameras... but nothing of note in the large sensor prosumer range where it really counts for all of us. And as for the cameras that have only been announced... pretty sure they will be released and fully available well before Panny even gets around to ANNOUNCING something. Hope I'm wrong.
As far as my engineering or manufacturing background to understand technology, prices, and cameras? While I know quite a fair deal, you also don't need to be a camera engineer or work in manufacturing to understand in depth what makes up the various parts of a digital camera and what bottlenecks there are in camera design. We all know frame-rate and codec limitations are separate from sensor issues. We all know companies withhold software based features to market at different price points. And we all know there are various costs associated with R&D time, marketing, economies of scale VS niche markets, etc.
And while I have a very good understanding of the technology behind this and a strong awareness of the associated hardware costs, one thing even a layman can understand now is this: A Sony FS700 @ $8K in 2012 now means that the bar has been set: An S35 sensor, 4K, 240fps, ND Filters, XLR, etc. is now defined as an $8K pricepoint in 2012. Max.
I fully expect a 2014 camera from Panny to blow that feature-set and price point out of the water. Not just because it's 2 years later, but because Sony has done some stupid things with their camera: forced use of propriety SSD recording rather than anything I can pickup from Newegg. Money grab. Lame. Why lock off codec support when the bandwidth is there? Let us record ProRes in camera. Software lock on VFR options such as 36, 44, 48fps etc.? Until you spend thousands more on next model up? Lame. It's a software switch. I hope Panny really comes through for consumers and doesn't play stupid games like this, and gives us the absolute best camera they can deliver at an industry leading price. That doesn't make us choose between high FPS recording and all-in-one features of the FS700, and no-games straight to ProRes/use an brand SSD on Blackmagic.
Look, nothing against Panny. They make great cameras. But let's no pretend they're not behind the game here. 2.5 years without any entry into the large sensor camera format. A pretty lame af100a update 2+ years later. Whatever they're cooking up better exceed expectations. If it does then I'll be happy to buy what they sell. I can't hold off more than another year though, the AF100 is starting to age. I love panny's ergos and color profiles etc. I've been with them for DVX, HVX, and AF100.
And I'm not one of those guys complaining about specs and cameras and not shooting. I shoot weekly, and the AF100 can still produce some great results. I shot this recently in India on the AF100: https://vimeo.com/63946714 // But it's more than time for a knock-out AF100 successor as well as an S35 model for those who desire the larger sensor.
AF200:
Greatly Improved IQ/DR sensor
Better resolution - 2.5-3K
1080p LED LCD
120fps burst-free recording; 240fps recording (burst free?)
Better codec options for straight to SD recording
4-channel audio (2x XLR + internal mics backup, as the HVX200 allowed)
Optional module for attachment: MicroP2/Any-brand SSD recording for straight to ProRes
No cheap software limitations (full VFR, timelapse, multi-codec support, focus assists, etc.)
Free Firmware software updates that add additional support and features throughout camera lifespan
All-in-one AF100 features i.e. focus assists/waveform/ergos/XLR/ND filters/etc.
~ $5.5-$6K
S35 Model:
All features above @ S35 sensor + 4K resolution
Adaptable mount options
Better in-built SSD/MicroP2 recording options
RAW recording
~ $7.5-$8k
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Barry_Green
Moderator
Interesting. Panasonic considers it to be the biggest hit they've ever had.
Okay, first of all, let's be clear -- it DID "clean up". It was massively successful.
But secondly, I (and pretty much everyone else) lobbied for that as well. I hated HDV, I think it's the worst format ever foisted upon the public, but -- I also recognize that some people needed it, and so why not provide it? I lobbied heavily for it. But the fact of the matter is that it was never going to be; Panasonic was not a member of the HDV Coalition, and so it could never have had HDV on it.
Absolutely agreed. That's why I'm glad to see they may be learning their lesson; with the introduction of MicroP2 they now are allowing top-tier P2 recording with super-high-quality codecs for those who need it, all the way down to AVC-LongG at 25mbps onto commodity SD cards for those who need it.
I agree entirely. But it wasn't to be, and in retrospect I don't know that we can say that it did them any damage. They sold truckloads and boatloads of the HVX as it is. But I do agree with you, it would have made a great camera even more flexible.