29.97 to 23.98 timeline FOLLOWUP problems

STORYTELLER32

STORYTELLER32

Well-known member
Hi all (especially Dashwood) ;)
Well, I did it. I took my original 24PA footage which I had originally had edited in a 29.97 timeline and went to tools and clicked remove advanced pulldown on all the clips in my bin. Then I copied and pasted my edit into a 23.98 timeline. So here's where the "fun" started.

After I pasted the timeline, I found sound was out of sync in a number of places with my already edited footage. So I had to re-sync it by eyeballing the timing in the timeline. Not only was it in the new timeline, but I found that it was messed up in the original timeline I pasted from, so it wasn't just the pasting that altered it. Had to be the pulldown that did it. (comments on this?)

That was bad enough, but the real thing I'm wondering about is that now everytime I pull new footage from the bin into the 23.98 timeline, I have to render each video clip before being able to view it. Is this normal? I didn't have to do that when I dragged footage into the 29.97 timeline before I did the pulldown.

Can someone answer that for me? Did I just FUBAR my footage without realizing it?
 
Re: 29.97 to 23.98 timeline FOLLOWUP problems

Geez.... sounds like a real mess. Your footage obviously is not 23.98, if you originally edited then removed the pulldown, that is most likely the HOW it got goofed up. The WHY, not totally sure. HOWEVER, your process was done bass ackwards. (no offense, just goofin)

IF, you can't remove the pulldown on the fly during capture (which a lot of us can't for some reason) you should remove it immediately after capture and before placing it into a timeline. The built in removal in FCP works O.K. and it seems to work fairly consistantly as well. BUT, Cinema Tools is leaps and bounds ahead IMHO.

Using the "reverse telicine" command works best and 100% of the time for me.

So, your other problem of it having to render is a sure sign of a "setting mismatch"... the fact that you didn't have to render in a 29.97 timeline means that your footage is indeed still 29.97

I would double check all you settings and get back to us with the specifics of your "audio video settings"

Good Luck go into Cinema Tools and run a "reverse telecine" on a single clip and see if that "fixes" your problem.
 
Re: 29.97 to 23.98 timeline FOLLOWUP problems

Oy... are you serious? Dashwood told me the following in a previous post:

[sup] "All he needs to do within FCP4 is highlight all of his clips in the bin, and then go to the "Tools" menu and select "Remove Advanced Pulldown." This will only take a few seconds... no Cinema Tools required for advanced pulldown. Now select all of the reconnected clips in your 29.97 timeline and copy "CMD+C" and paste "CMD+V" into a 23.98 sequence." [/sup]

So that's what I did because we did shoot 24PA but just captured and started editing in a 29.97 timeline. Is there a way to reverse this process back to the 29.97 timeline I originally had?

Current audio/video settings are:
sequence preset: DV NTSC 48khz Anamorphic
Capture preset: DV NTSC 48khz Anamorphic

When I right click on the clips in the browser bin, under the format window they show to be 23.98.
I did, however, check my sequence preset and it didn't say 23.98 like I had set it to before copying and pasting. I just tried to copy and past into a new sequence with the 23.98 setting and all my footage need to be rendered now.

Suggestions? Is what I'm working with now totally FUBARED? Or can I save the cut?

PS: I never used cinema tools before. can you offer me a simple workflow on how to go about reversing the telecine?

Thanks for all the help.
 
Re: 29.97 to 23.98 timeline FOLLOWUP problems

Yea how does Cinema Tools work? Do you have to import all your "raw" footage to CT then remove the pulldown then export back to FCP to edit, if not what is the process. I have not used CT yet and I need to know the process for when I do need to use it.
 
Re: 29.97 to 23.98 timeline FOLLOWUP problems

I tried it last night. It's not difficult really. From cinematools you select 'open' from the file menu and then choose the clips in your FCP capture scratch folder. The rest is basic.

This did not, however, help my situation. The sound was REALLY screwed up when I set the files back to 29.97. Everyone sounded like they were talking on helium. Looks like I'm going to have to re-capture from scratch and re-edit ALL EFFING OVER AGAIN.

For all who were ever thinking of doing what I did, read the quote from my "oy" section of the post above and DON'T follow that advice in the quotes. Bottom line is you can't copy and paste an edit from one timeline into another with a different timebase (ie. 29.97 to 23.98) once the timecode has been established. Lesson learned (the hard effing way).
 
Re: 29.97 to 23.98 timeline FOLLOWUP problems

Hum? I wonder if you can remove a pulldown and still have the wrong frame rate? Just because you remove a pulldown, doesn't mean it changes the frame rate for you.

I think that's the real issue here. You can use CT in one of two ways. One is the longer way that I seem to have the best results with.

Opening ONE clip at a time and using the "reverse telecine" and I pretty much always choose "same" as I don't require a copy of the original.

BUT... you can also simply run a batch which will run the "reverse telecine" on an entire folder and create TWO new folders, a "reversed" and a "skipped" - This is cool but my system doesn't seem to like doing batches as it will skip some that need to be reversed... after you get all your clips to reverse properly you then either have to manually move the files back into their proper places (folders) or "reconnect" the media in FCP.

Really not that difficult

You should start by reading Adam Wilts page
http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/

read the entire thing and you'll save yourself hours and hours
 
Re: 29.97 to 23.98 timeline FOLLOWUP problems

I don't beleive the copy/paste fucntion after a remove pulldown actually changes the edit with +/-1 adjustments frame as any matchback process does. Only if the +/-1 frame adjustements are made can one go back and forth between frame rates. An editing timebase of 1/29.97th of second is very different than 1/23.976 of second.
 
Re: 29.97 to 23.98 timeline FOLLOWUP problems

STORYTELLER32 said:
For all who were ever thinking of doing what I did, read the quote from my "oy" section of the post above and DON'T follow that advice in the quotes. Bottom line is you can't copy and paste an edit from one timeline into another with a different timebase (ie. 29.97 to 23.98) once the timecode has been established. Lesson learned (the hard effing way).
Click to expand...


Hi Storyteller,

I'm back in town and I'd just like to let you know that my good advice does work perfectly, and any problem you had executing it was probably good old "human error." * I feel I have to defend myself here since I do this type of thing all the time because I work with mixed media (HD, SD, 24P, etc) projects. I also prefer to help people and not point them in the wrong direction. I'm sorry things worked out poorly for you.
I'm not sure where you lost your way, but I recreated your originally described situation and went through my suggested process step-by-step so you can try it again (incase you haven't already started from scratch and followed the correct 24PA workflow.)

In your original post ( http://www.dvxuser.com/cgi-bin/DVX2/YaBB.pl?board=FCP;action=display;num=1088463883 ) you said that you captured your 24PA footage as 29.97 anamorphic and started editing in 29.97, but you wanted to convert your existing footage and sequence to 23.98.

Here's my re-created workflow:

1. Capture your 24PA clips NTSC 29.97 Anamorphic without removing the advanced pulldown.

step1.jpg



2. Create a new NTSC 29.97 sequence:

step2.jpg



3. Edit your 29.97 clips in your 29.97 sequence. * *This is the point you were at when you requested help in your original post.

step3.jpg



4. Highlight your original clips in the bin.

step4.jpg



5. Select "Remove Advanced pulldown"

step5.jpg



6. You will notice that your clips become "unrendered" because they are now 23.98 clips inside a 29.97 sequence, and they all show 23.98 in the bin.

step5C.jpg

step5B.jpg



7. Now lasso and highlight the clips in the sequence.

step6.jpg



8. Copy

step7.jpg



9. Create a new sequence using the 23.98 preset.

step8.jpg



10. Click the "Anamorphic" checkmark to make it anamorphic. * (I also renamed the sequences to avoid confusion.)

step9.jpg



11. Open the new sequence.

step10.jpg



12. Paste

step11.jpg



13. That's it. * You'll notice that there are absolutely no "red bar" renders because your 23.98 clips are now inside a 23.98 sequence and the cuts are at the exact points they should be and nothing is out of sync.

step12.jpg
 
Re: 29.97 to 23.98 timeline FOLLOWUP problems

Don't know why it didn't work for me, Dashwood. But we did shoot 24PA and I did do exactly what you went extremely far out of your way to show here (my sincere thanks for your efforts by the way). I wasn't angry at you for the advice, just annoyed at my misfortune. I can't figure out why this isn't working for me because logically, it should.

All I know is after I did the pulldown to my footage in the bin, I got a message stating not all the footage was able to be pulled down. I don't know why. After that, my original 29.97 timeline edit had major screwups in it which is going to be a royal pain the ass to fix. Clips that were edited in a certain order suddenly were moved out of sync with the sound or the place where I picked the cut to happen in a given scene was altered to a different spot from the originating footage in the bin.

Again, we did shoot 24PA for all the footage so there's no freakin' reason for this to be happening. I suppose the only real way for either of us to find out would be if you were here looking over my shoulder at my screen.

Again, thanks for the effort. It was totally unnecessary but much appreciated.
 
Re: 29.97 to 23.98 timeline FOLLOWUP problems

[quote author=STORYTELLER32 link=board=FCP;num=1089297436;start=0#8 date=07/11/04 at 20:10:20]I got a message stating not all the footage was able to be pulled down. I don't know why. [/quote]

Hi Storyteller,

I suspect that some of your original clips may have had some cadence order errors. This will happen if you digitize over scene changes. The DVX is supposed to maintain perfect cadence when you stop and then hit the record button again (hence the long preroll time), but it doesn't always work.

I have a friend who digitized whole tapes as one clip each, and then had nothing but headaches with pulldown removal, audio sync, etc. I always log each take separately and then batch capture without problems.

Anyway, I hope you have sorted out your issues. It's too bad they cost you so much time. I hope you didn't have a client in the room!

Tim
 
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