25 page short over one weekend.

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egyptianboxer104

Well-known member
Hey everyone! I am a student at a small time college who doesn't have much film equipment (but a good theater program). Therefore i do not have access to prosumer equipment.

That being said, I have written a 25 minute short film and I want to direct it. The rentals in the area for a one day shoot is $275 for a Cannon XL1 or DVX100b (of course i'm going with the DVX). I would assume if i rent it on a friday then i can have it for the entire weekend and still have it count for a single day. I need to rent also lighting equipment which is another $125 and I may have to pay to use certain locations.

My budget is $0.00 so i'm already over budget. But i may be able to get $500... but not much more. So I think i'll shoot this entire film over the course of one weekend, spending 8 hours friday, 12 hours saturday, and 7 hours sunday to get everything complete.

How much time does it take to shoot a single page? And should i not do this?
 
Storyboarding will tell you the real complexity of your script. If it is 25 pages in a coffee shop with only two characters talking as they sip coffee and read the paper, you could easily do that in one weekend.

If it is a three page script with several locations, lots of characters and lots of moving action that must be covered by a variety of shots, that will take more than one weekend to shoot.

If I were you, I'd stick with a ten page (or less) screenplay. Long shorts rarely get into festivals. My last short was 14 minutes long. We got into 8 festivals (including Santa Fe Film Festival, which has an 11% acceptance rate) but many festivals rejected us due to length.

Volume isn't the name of the game. Quality is. Make it short so you can focus on making every moment high quality.
 
There are three locations with 3 major charactors but a total of 9 speaking parts and 11 characters total (give or take). I decided that i'm going to do everything i can before filming such as run-throughs etc. So are there no film festivals that will accept a 20-25 minute film? i am hoping to send it to three minor film fests i found on withoutabox.com.

The main problem i have is funding to rent equipment. I might actually be able to borrow a camera from a friend and if that is true i'll make the film over a period of 2 weekends instead of one.

So do film fests not accept 20-25 minute films? I was hoping to shoot at each location for one day, 8 hours. I was going to work with my actors before we film so they know what they have to do and they can practice so on film day we are ready. Although i want to take a million shots, with a budget of nothing and no film equpiment... i think this is the best thing.

I can shorten it to 20 minutes but still... is 20 minutes too long for New York short film festival? and other festivals of that nature.
 
A 25 minute short will struggle to get into ANY film festival. It's far longer than the standard short.

Should film festivals judge movies on their merit? Sure. Do they? Nope.

Also, this is your first film. Stick with something 8 pages or less with no more than 3 characters and 1 location.

No film festival hands out awards for largest cast or most locations. Focus on quality dialogue, excellent acting, well composed shots, awesome lighting...don't focus on logistics. Don't focus on length. If you do that, you'll have a much more successful project.

- Justin
 
Well i've made a one minute silent short before. It was only me acting but I was able to use a remote control and i got some good experience. I used a lot of angles and spent almost 3 hours making and editing it... although i didn't have a half decent camcorder... anyway I've shortened it to 20 pages and 2 locations... I still need the same number of actors but no more than 3 will be on screen at a time. I found a Camera rental company who will rent me a DVX100A for $200 for a weekend.

Is 20 pages still alot? I don't think it would be possible to tell this story without everything i have in there... come to think of it... it could probably become a full feature if i just add a lot more to it... But my main problem is finding actors to help me make my shorts. Unless i mention "film festival" no one seems interested at all. And i don't plan on entering a film festival without using a proper camcorder... Unless it's possible. I dont' know i've never attempted this before.
 
I've produced two shorts that were approximately 30 mins each.

The first -- 'Three Wishes' -- was actually the first thing I'd ever produced. We shot it over a long weekend -- 3 days. It had a cast of 6 people, and all took place in one house over the course of a single aftenoon and evening. A character-driven drama. We managed to wrap early on two of the three days, and it turned out pretty well.

The second -- 'A Matter of Life' -- broke all the rules. A large number of locations -- including two medical procedure rooms and a completely decked banquet hall full of diners. A fairly large number of speaking parts. We also shot this one in just 3 days, and it also turned out pretty well.

If 'pretty well' is good enough for you, then it can be done. But it wasn't until I got into producing my first feature that I learned what a HUGE difference great lighting and camera work can make. I also learned that great lighting is an art, and art takes time.

If you want to do this for the sake of the experience and just to have something to show people, then yes -- you can conceivably get it shot in a single weekend. But if you hope to get it into festivals and maybe find some way to get it distributed (hard for a short, but not impossible), then don't try to do it in a single weekend. Invest the time and make everyone's hard work be worth the effort.

Good luck!
 
BTW, you don't say where you're located, but you might be able to find a DP with his own camera who is willing to shoot the project for you for meals, credit and copy. That would save you having to rent the camera, so you could spend that money on extra meals, etc. Then you could shoot on two consecutive weekends, or even three.

Don't forget that good lighting and good sound are just as important as a quality image. So find lighting and sound people who also own their own gear.

I know a guy who made a short (close to 45 mins long, if I remember right) in his own apartment. Shot it on a consumer-level VHS-C camcorder with the built-in mic. Used only the practical lights that were already there. He and his wife did everything -- both in front of and behind the camera. He edited linearly by connecting the camcorder to a VCR. For titles, he bought a cheap ($80) titler from Best Buy. It didn't look great, it didn't sound great -- but it was compelling and strange. And they managed to get distribution and a glowing review from Joe Bob Briggs. The whole thing cost him less than $100.

I don't recommend going that route. But my point is, if you have a great story, a great script, then just imagine how much better your film will be with a good DP, good lighting, and good sound.

Keep us posted!
 
This may sound a bit harsh, but I don't see the point of making anything if it's not going to be professional quality unless everyone you are having help you understands it's just for experience and they're on the same page with you.

These other comments are right on, a short should not be over 10 minutes if possible. My first short was 12. I think it was an acceptable length, because our credits was too long, so really it was like 11:15. We cut down from 15 minutes I think. Could have maybe cut more.

The point is I can tell a full story with band performance in 3 minutes. Figure out a way to tell a story in a tiny amount of time, it's more valuable as a skill. The real money and real work isn't in shorts anyway, they are basically just for fun. Everyone wants to make shorts constantly, and I've never understood this obsession, I think it's from film school. At least, I blame film school, shorts have no commercial potential whatsoever, they are basically useless in every respect except for getting a few scenes from your shorts to put into a reel, gaining experience (hugely important, to be sure), and maybe having fun. But I think like a businessman and while the music video industry may be worse than it has been for a long time (ever?), even still there's money in music videos and there's just no money in shorts.

The only good that came of shorts for me was gaining some experience and confidence, and I didn't submit them to film festivals because I didn't really care. I didn't think they were even close to good enough or professional enough, and I am not the kind of person who messes around with unprofessional results. If I was to film a short I know I'd spend $25,000 on it because I wouldn't be satisfied with the quality of anything less. It can take $10,000 to film a great music video in one day, it'd be easy to blow through $25,000 on a short unless everyone's working for free.

In my experience, there's a reason people work for free, and it's usually because they're not professional enough to do otherwise. That's why I've worked for free or spent money on my reel as a director, because I'm not experienced enough yet or professional enough (just being honest) to make money on my directing skills. But I do have the good sense to hire a professional crew, often with 5-10 years experience each, so that I surround myself with people who really know what they're doing. That way I get professional results.

I guess what I'm saying is if I were you I'd lower my expectations and realize that if all you get is experience and having a bit of fun, this is a GOOD thing! There's nothing wrong with that. Just don't expect too much. Experience is worth spending money and time to acquire, your results don't have to be great or even good to justify your time, at least, because you're going to learn from every mistake and in my opinion it's very hard to improve if you don't make mistakes first, or learn from mistakes, be self-critical, etc.

Again just from a business perspective, as someone who co-owns a small production company, I would never, ever look at someone's work if it was over 10 minutes long. I frankly can't much tolerate anything over 5 minutes, I get bored. Most producers / executives are the same way. We're busy, phone calls to make, e-mails to send, projects in the pipeline, so you have to show me something really spectacular in a short time period. I can usually tell, for instance, if a DPs reel is good within 30 seconds. If it's not good I just shut it off. I don't care if the rest was great, they didn't have the good sense to edit the crap out of the first 30 seconds so I don't have the time to watch the rest. Everyone who knows what they are doing understands how important those first 30 seconds are of a reel anyway.

I'd say about 90% of short films I see completely blow, and I'd include at least one of my last two short films in that too. I think the other is just ok. I wouldn't show it to anyone at this point, it's unprofessional, but we shot in 1.5 days and had a 12 minute short for $600 (paid the actors, plus food and some gas money). If I don't even enjoy watching short films I've shot, I certainly don't enjoy most that other people have shot either. The occasional great short pops up that really moves me, but there's just so much bad stuff out there. Focus on those great moments, great writing, and great cinematography in a 6-8 minute short and you may have something really great.

Film school students always seem to think longer is better. I think shorter is much better, it forces you to tell the story in a quicker way, using more visual cues and tighter writing. But what do I know? ;)
 
Man this is becoming pretty tough. I want to turn this into a feature btu i definatly don't have the funding to do that. I have cut out a lot of pages and brought it down to 15 which cuts out a bulk of the plot/story/message but i can focus on good shots etc.

Where can i find a DOP that will work for free? well tell ya the truth i want to film this myself becuase i am very much more into that aspect. and i have a friend who can do lights for me. But for future reference where can i find cheap DOPs and Light technicians etc?
 
I have always paid my DPs pretty fairly, I mean I know how important the image is, it's really the key, so that's something I've always thought needed the proper funding.

I'll admit on the video we just shot, my DP was so great, he's such an amazing guy with such great passion, he deserved way more than what I could pay him. He worked too hard for what I paid him but I'm hoping in the future our director-DP relationship can be good and I can get some bigger projects where he can make some better money.

I've never paid a DP less than $350 for a day, though.
 
The thing with getting films shot is the planning. I started offering production services early this year. Haven't made it mainstream yet. Still doing it on a per-project basis. Haven't actually made the venture public yet.

But I've broken down many a script. I time it out, talk to the director and writer. And nail out a full breakdown for them. With schedules, calendars, and all that jazz. It makes or breaks a production really. Scheduling is key.
 
If you can afford to pay your DP, as well as the other crew and cast members, then by all means you should do so. Although personally I wouldn't JUST pay the DP -- I'd pay everybody or nobody.

But I've had a lot of luck finding good people willing to work on a good project -- even a short -- for deferred pay. With a short, that usually means just meals, credit and copy. Look for any filmmaker boards or resources (film commissions, etc.) in your state.

I do have to disagree with the oft-stated contention that there is no way to make money with shorts. Granted, it's harder than with features. But there are a number of shorts on Netflix -- "Spacemen, Go-Go Girls, and the Real Meaning of Christmas", for example. And the whole series of "Thumb-" movies -- like "Thumbtanic" -- can be found for sale or rent in stores. They are all shorts. So it's not entirely impossible, though you have a better shot with a feature.
 
Yes, Chapel Grove is right. It is possible to make a 25 page movie in one weekend.

I'm suggesting that since this is:

1.) your first movie
2.) you have extremely limited finances
3.) you don't have access to tons of free gear
4.) you've never planned something of this complexity before

that perhaps it is best to start with something smaller. Quantity vs. Quality.

Or, do what most of us do...ignore the more experienced, do what we want anyways, fail and then say "Damn, I should have listened to all the people warning me that I was approaching this wrong! I'll join DVXuser and preach the good word! I'll help those with less experience than me not make my mistakes! I'll SAVE THEM ALL!"

Oh, wait...that's just me. Never mind.
 
Eh, nothing wrong with taking a bigger risk sometimes, I'm not the kind of person to spend forever gaining experience before I ever do something big or worthwihile, but I just think it's not that bad of an idea to have lower expectations on your earlier projects and just don't put pressure on yourself that you're going to submit to film festivals, it's going to be great, the quality will turn out super awesome, etc.

I made about 3-4 shorts with my friend Bryan back in high school, all starting with a horror short, and you know what? They were awful films. I mean, awful. But thank god we made them because we learned a lot! We did our best at the time, we tried hard for high school kids, we had fake blood supplies, I had to lay on the floor with my mouth dripping with grenadine I think it was, ketchup all over my shirt mixed with some of the fake blood and this whole nasty concoction, and we had even some nifty effects that we did with just camera tricks, basically. The end result of each of those shorts was pretty much unwatchable, but that doesn't mean they were useless. They were great to make and still captured that feeling of joy when you're making something yourself for the first time and realizing how tough it is, wondering what makes a professional result versus an amateur one, and that is not something I learned fully until sometime last year.

On a side note, Bryan is a directing major at Chapman graduating soon, he's went on to award-winning short films and some really nice work, right now in the process of trying to land several bigger opportunities. He has honed his craft quite a lot since those early days and continued making short films, music videos, and launched his own live TV show at our college campus (I helped him with that a bit, as well as some other projects, though he was the one mainly doing film in college while I was mainly studying film theory and film history). Now I'm directing music videos, working on corporate projects, etc. So it'd be awesome if one day we both make it, to some degree at least, and we have this absolutely terrible short film we both did in high school (we were the co-directors, lol) to show the world. I can't remember who has those tapes, I think I might have them, hehe, blackmail material for him. I'll disavow all involvement as a director. ;)
 
Prodigi Pictures said:
Yes, Chapel Grove is right. It is possible to make a 25 page movie in one weekend.

I'm suggesting that since this is:

1.) your first movie
2.) you have extremely limited finances
3.) you don't have access to tons of free gear
4.) you've never planned something of this complexity before

that perhaps it is best to start with something smaller. Quantity vs. Quality.

Or, do what most of us do...ignore the more experienced, do what we want anyways, fail and then say "Damn, I should have listened to all the people warning me that I was approaching this wrong! I'll join DVXuser and preach the good word! I'll help those with less experience than me not make my mistakes! I'll SAVE THEM ALL!"

Oh, wait...that's just me. Never mind.
Click to expand...

Totally agree with Prodigi. If you're doing this as a learning experience, then what are you going to learn by doing it badly? The best bet is to find the absolute best way you can make your film within the budget that you have available.

If you have a great script and a great vision, then you can probably find skilled people willing to help you, even without pay. 'Three Wishes' was my very first attempt at making a film, and I knew a LOT less than I thought I did. Nobody -- and I mean NOBODY -- in the business had ever heard of me before. Even so, I was able to score a director who drove all the way to NC from Orlando at his own expense, bringing with him 2 DVCAM's and a light kit -- all for just meals, credit and copy. (He also did the editing.) I got actresses from Atlanta (about a 4 hour drive), also for meals, credit and copy. So if you've got any kind of cast and crew base anywhere within driving distance, then you might be able to get good help within your budget.

But DO learn from the mistakes of others. Don't try to do this whole thing in a single weekend. Sure, you might pull it off. And it might turn out okay. But I promise you, later on you're going to wish you'd taken the time and made the effort to make it not just 'okay', but the very BEST it could possibly be.

If it's a good story, then it deserves to be told well.

Good luck!
 
Well i've made a decision. This saturday at 2pm i'll be meeting all actors/possible crew members interested. I'll then decide if there's enough people to make the film. It'll be only 15 pages instead of the original 25. I realized that the 25 page short was really a feature length short crammed into a short length (i used dialoge to explain circumstances instead of showing them).



Good or bad idea. Make this short, send it to festivals, then turn the same idea into a feature with a larger cast and much more money.

I plan to make some more shorts in-between this processes (not to be submitted to film festivals... i don't have that kind of money for equipment) to gain experience until i'm ready for a kick ass film.

I know how to compose a shot i've just never delt with actors before. We'll see how it turns out. Where do you find your DOPs and actors and such? remember i'm broke so an ad in the paper won't help much...
 
It's all about passion.

As a low-budget indie producer, an absolutely crucial skill is networking. You need to start seeing everyone, everything, everyplace as a possible addition to your pool. You mentioned a theatre dept - everyone dean to janitor - needs to know you're making a movie and looking for help. The town - cops to pizza delivery guy to landlord to metermaid - see them all through a lens and think "how could they help?". The local goodwill store is your costume dept. The local junkyard is an absolute goldmine. Know their names and bring donuts. Listen to the speaker when ordering your fries - is that voiceover talent? People lead dull lives. An amazing number will want to be associated with that crazy bastard doing that wild project. This is not a 2 hour a day & half time Saturday kinda thing. You gotta live it. People get excited by exciting people. Fire 'em up.

Understand that as soon as they find out there's work involved 95% will bail. But they'll tell 10 people how they were "involved" in this thing - and they'll tell
10 people - and you'll start getting calls out of the blue - and eventually you'll have a crew - and you'll actually go out and set up a camera in public - and draw a crowd. Spend $20 @ vistaprint for a bazillion contact cards to hand out.
Practice your "hey baby - you wanna be in films" delivery in the mirror first to minimize physical trauma upon your body. This is supposed to be fun - you gotta trick yourself and, by example, everyone else into not realizing what a monumental amount of work is involved. Everybody gets stereotyped - decide if you wanna be "that movie guy".

Do you realize you still haven't said where you are??? There might be 10 potential bored DPs' and Sound guys with gear reading this right now.

Wander the halls here - there's just one amazing amount of talent, ego and opinion spread all over the place. Sort of a 'learn at your own place" film school - and a lot cheaper than Chapman.

No idea where this rant came from - gotta get more sleep. Blow it off and go push record on your dream. We're all looking forward to seeing it.
 
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wow... that was excellent advice. I definatly did not think of it this way.

I am in Ashland Virginia which is 15 minutes away from RICHMOND virginia. I'll definatly be in richmond over the summer and i hope to get a chance to shoot another very low budget short over the summer once i gain a little bit of money.

My name is Eric Farag
E-mail Ericfarag@students.rmc.edu

This first short is being filmed the first weekend of may. 10 pages 3 days (friday sat sun)

Filming schedule

Friday: 2pm - 5pm
Saturday 8am - 5pm
Sunday 8am - 4pm

I will be paying for meals for all the cast and crew.
 
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