24pa Stinks, can I switch?

kylelewis1

kylelewis1

Well-known member
I have beeen working on a project that past few months. I am not impressed at all with 24pa... likely because of something I am doing wrong... but nonetheless it doesn't look good. There is strobing on pans and the overall speed of the video looks a tad off, but maybe that is my imagination.

Anyways, my question is this: Now that I have shot all this footage in 24pa and am halfway edited through a 10 minute piece, is there is a way to easily switch everything to 29.97? If I did this (if it is possible), would this mess anything up anything when sending it to DVD or tape?

Thanks for your help!
 
Re: 24pa Stinks, can I switch?

I understand what you are saying regarding 24PAdvanced. I have had that same problem with the strobing and overall "off" look to the film.

That is why I switched over to shooting 24P normal. I did some tests between the two settings, and the look was exactly the same. Possibly the flow of movement may be different, but when the movement looks stroby and stuttery how am I to tell that it's better.

I really feel unless you know you are going to film, which only 1% out of all the DVXer's in the world probably do, just shoot 24p Normal. It looks just as good, has no stroby effects, and is easy to work with(no pulldown removal).

Regarding your current project - I think you are stuck with it as is. If you try to make it 29.97, you risk having your frames becoming "ripped", which is when frames cross together and you see a slight glitch between cuts.(there may be a solution someone else may know of, but I think you are stuck).

I say, don't sweat over it, finish the project to the best of your ability and move on to something new. Test out 24p normal and see if you like it better.

Good luck!
 
Re: 24pa Stinks, can I switch?

Yeah, I never planned to go to film. I just thought 24pa would look the best but now I really wish I stuck with 29.97. I guess you live and learn!
 
Re: 24pa Stinks, can I switch?

Try making your project offline and then recapture using a 30fps preset w/o advanced pulldown removed. Should be fine then.

Good luck,

CaptM
 
Re: 24pa Stinks, can I switch?

So even though I shot everything in 24pa I can still capture it in 30fps and it will be fine?
 
Re: 24pa Stinks, can I switch?

Yup. Will look almost like 24P with the kind of stutter effect, but should be fine. Remember once it's on the tape, it IS 30fps.

CaptM
 
Re: 24pa Stinks, can I switch?

CaptM,

I have successfully recaptured everything at 29.97! So thank you for the advice.

Do I need to have a field dominance set now that it is at 29.97?
 
Re: 24pa Stinks, can I switch?

I've been using 24PA for my first 24p project on my DVX (I've done several 60i projects so far). I am also 10 minutes into the project (of a total of 25 minute final product).
I captured as standard 60i (i.e., 29.97) and edited like it is 60i. I've had no problems at all. I never imported it as 24p or 24pa - is that why I haven't had difficulties? Anyway, what I've done edits like 60i and looks like 24p. I have no intention of going out to film. The final product will be on DVD.
 
Re: 24pa Stinks, can I switch?

It is odd when I hit the right or left arrows to go one frame at a time that every fifth frame is a duplicate of the one before it - I wonder what it would look like in 24p regular.
 
Re: 24pa Stinks, can I switch?

I know exactly what you mean. I shot pretty much all of a feature project on 24pA because I had the intention of going out to 24p DVD. The processed footage looked terrible before or after compression; it didn't really matter which one. And even the few compression artifacts that were offset by NTSC resolution were compromised by the strobing.
That's my biggest question with 24pA--the strobing. If it's supposed to add in 3:2 pulldown on a 4:3 TV, why does it still look like I applied a Commodore video filter? I tried capturing/compressing video shot on F5 and it looked perfect. Very few compression artifacts, perfect motion.
 
Re: 24pa Stinks, can I switch?

There still seems to be a lot of confusion regarding 24fps modes.

Shoot 24p (F5) if you just want the 24fps film look. Capture and edit at 29.97. This is just like film that has been telecined.

Shoot 24pa (F6) only if you plan to go to film or 24fps DVD. You need to do an advanced pulldown removal on capture or at least before edit. Edit it at 23.98. Visually 24pa will strobe a little more than 24p because it's not meant to be viewed raw and doesn't represent regular telecine pulldown. It's whole point is to allow easy frame removal to get back to 24fps without losing quality. Make sure your playback prefs are set to add 3:2 best quality on playback. If you don't have a fast enough machine or this is not your setting then it will not look as good on playback. (Will be fine on film or DVD but not played directly out)

Note that in either 24fps mode you will get strobing easier than normal video. That's inherent in film production as well where they have to watch the speed at which they pan and tilt the camera. You need to approach 24fps with more control than you might with standard video practices.
 
Re: 24pa Stinks, can I switch?

Thanks for the input. Do any of you know, now that I have recaptured it back to 29.97, do I have to set a field dominance?
 
Re: 24pa Stinks, can I switch?

Guys, 24pa rocks....especially when you are going out directly to DVD or film...even the web...

It probably looks off because you didn't remove the pulldown and you are editing in a 23.98 timeline...you need to remove the pulldown first (be it in Cinema Tools or directly in FCP HD) Then edit in the 23.98 timeline...If anything you will find when shooting in 24P and editing in 29.97, when you speed up footage or slow it down you will get weird looking video...

24PA kicks ass...24P ehh..its for people who are to lazy to make thier footage look like actual film. Think about it...you shoot like film...edit like film...I mean thats what this camera is for right?
 
Re: 24pa Stinks, can I switch?

Even though my work doesn't necessarily always go to film, I still edit at 23.976 because I want all my titles, graphics, etc also in 24... vs 29.97 (video look titles over film look footage). You can see it in the fades, etc.
 
Re: 24pa Stinks, can I switch?

[quote author=Kyle Sherman link=board=FCP;num=1104521927;start=0#13 date=01/15/05 at 11:29:10]Guys, 24pa rocks....especially when you are going out directly to DVD or film...even the web...

It probably looks off because you didn't remove the pulldown and you are editing in a 23.98 timeline...you need to remove the pulldown first (be it in Cinema Tools or directly in FCP HD) Then edit in the 23.98 timeline...If anything you will find when shooting in 24P and editing in 29.97, when you speed up footage or slow it down you will get weird looking video...

24PA kicks ass...24P ehh..its for people who are to lazy to make thier footage look like actual film.  Think about it...you shoot like film...edit like film...I mean thats what this camera is for right?[/quote]


I get what you mean. Mostly 'cause I did pulldown removal from the beginning--after seeing what the footage looked like, I tried it two out of the three ways (tried on capture and by using the 'Remove Advanced Pulldown' menu option; didn't try Cinema Tools). The ability to remove pulldown was why I went to FCPHD as opposed to 2 or 3--I skipped 4 because I had heard of bugginess issues. The ability to edit in true progressive frames was the reason I went to F6. And the footage--shot in 24pA, captured with pulldown removal, placed in a 23.98 timeline, output with 3:2 pulldown, and compressed with a 24p setting looked like it was running at half the framerate; this was with slow camera movement, fast camera movement, or a static camera. Didn't really make a difference--and these results were observed both on a computer monitor before DVD burning, on an NTSC monitor after burning, and on the computer monitor after burning.
 
Re: 24pa Stinks, can I switch?

Not sure how you could end up with something that 'looked like it was running at half the framerate'.

Try a simple test of shootign someone rotating there arm like a clock and shoot with dfferent speeds and modes. Try bringing in each their correct way. Each should appear to be moving at the same speed if you've done capture, edit, playback correctly.
 
Re: 24pa Stinks, can I switch?

[quote author=Scottdvx100 link=board=FCP;num=1104521927;start=15#17 date=01/16/05 at 14:48:15]Not sure how you could end up with something that 'looked like it was running at half the framerate'.

Try a simple test of shootign someone rotating there arm like a clock and shoot with dfferent speeds and modes.  Try bringing in each their correct way.  Each should appear to be moving at the same speed if you've done capture, edit, playback correctly.[/quote]

Good idea. I took your advice and did so a little while ago--set up a static camera angle, recorded F6 on one blank tape, F5 on another. Both had OIS turned off, with the shutter off. The detail, chroma, master ped, v. line detail, etc. settings were identical. Did the capture with and without pulldown removal, respectively. Output F6 with 2:3:2:3 pulldown and at a 24p setting, the F5 with automatic compression settings (I was trying to decide between automatic and NTSC/top field dominance--went with automatic). Burned both of 'em to DVD, and the result was the same. The F5 footage is smooth, consistent, and had the right amount of motion blur. The F6
didn't have as much in the way of compression artifacts, but it was also a static angle with only one moving object, so that's to be expected. The motion was completely off--no combing or other interlace artifacts, but it was extremely choppy.
I've been working with FCP for about a year and a half now. It took me a couple of days to get used to the settings in the switch from FCP3 to HD, but I read the manual, did tests until I was pretty sure my eyes were going to bleed, and this is the one thing that's not coming out right. If I'm still doing something wrong at this point, I have to be crazy.

On a slightly less frustrating and more penance-y note, I got to buy my friend dinner for making her pinwheel her arm continuously for ten minutes. :)
 
Re: 24pa Stinks, can I switch?

I'm sure you already know this is coming, but: it's something you're doing wrong. It's not 24PA's fault, 24PA works flawlessly for what it's intended for. 24PA doesn't "stink" (as the original title of this thread implies); it just has to be handled properly. I see more complaints about FCP in this regard than any other editing program, yet I'm sure it can work properly, which leads me to the conclusion that Apple must not have documented the 24P/24PA process very well. So all I can say is, ask someone who knows how to do it, and try their method -- you shouldn't be able to see *any* difference between 24P and 24PA, when edited in a 24P timeline and put out to DVD.
 
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