24p is on the way out!

[ESTEBEVERDE]

This argument is rediculous. You are still assumming that at some point in the near future everyone will just want to pack up everything and move on to something new. While that could very well happen, you obviously cannot be as sure as you make yourself out to be. No one can tell the future for certain.

You may have a few little pieces of evidence, such as James Cameron's thoughts, but he is only one man, not the entire industry. And while this "evidence" may point to higher frame rates, you are still only guessing the path that the industry will take.

I dont have a problem with you saying that things COULD change, but to say they WILL change for certain, is rather foolish to me.

Perhaps.

But even if it were it would only be as foolish as saying they are sure to stay the same.

By the way your arguments are fallacious.

Saying my argument is ridiculous is just that. Appeal to ridicule. Nothing more.

Merely and saying that we don't know is argumentum ad ignorantiam. It's meaningless.

 

[DREWjoseph82]

I am not arguing that it will stay the same. It might, it might not. I am arguing against your "aura of knowingness" that you seem to have about you without any real basis.

MY argument is fallacious? Are you kidding me? My argument is that you dont know the future. I must really be doing something wrong if that is fallacious.

You're arguing that saying the future is uncertain is meaningless? In that case, I say that in 3 years cameras will be completely replaced by fish heads based on my new found opinions. Saying Im wrong doesn't mean anything, because you can't prove to me that it won't happen.

You say that our arguments dont hold up, but your main argument is that "because people can, they absolutely will." Well I could go run for president, but I dont see my name on the ballot. As stated before, judging from the overwhelming consensus in this thread that filmmakers like the 24fps cadence, I dont know where you are getting this certainty from.

People very well may start to shoot at higher framerates, but until it actually becomes the standard, you cannot say at this time that its going to replace 24fps.

I really dont see the point in continuing this discussion. Its just you saying "itll happen" and everyone else saying, "i hope not. It could, but we dont know."

 

[Postmaster]

ESTEBEVERDE, those electric care examples are a good methapher, but your conclusion are backwards.

They make electric cars because they can (at least they try) not because it makes sense.

The Prius has the same mileage as my girfriends Daihatsu but without 2 engine systems, tonns of electronics and expensive (and extreamly enviroment unfriendly) batteries.
So what is the benefit?

The Volt is an other story, it´s now delayed till 1010 (if it ever show up in real live) because they can´t get a company that makes reliable and safe batteries.

Same with framerates - it´s made because we can. Doesn´t mean that it makes any sense.

I stay with 24 because of artistic choise and audience demand

They can take 24 out of my dead, cold hands :evil:

Frank

 

[The Noble Robot]

You argued that progress is not a function of time. That’s completely nonsensical as we can neither stop time nor reverse time. Time for us for now only moves forward.

Come back when you understand what the word "function" means.

It and your argument in themselves are rife with Fallacy of Accident, Converse Fallacy of Accident, Irrelevant Conclusion - popular sentiment, fear, and conventional propriety.

Ummm, so your argument is that I'm wrong, therefore I'm wrong. So, which of my statements are examples of accidental fallacy, and which are conversely accidental?

For someone who randomly cites logic concepts, you don't seem to be interested in building your argument using logical constructs. It really just seems like you've been putting Wikipedia and The Google though it's paces.

By the way your arguments are fallacious.

Merely and saying that we don't know is argumentum ad ignorantiam

Listen, I tend to use them myself, but big words do not equal big thoughts.

If you can't use simple language to convey your thoughts, you have to qualify your "expensive" language, or else you look silly.

Artist are interested and the technology will be there and a better combination will be found than our current strobeing and juddering 24p.

24p has limitation and there are those who want to overcome them by shooting and playing back at a higher frame rate.

There you go conflating your arguments, again. Sigh, it's no use.

 

[The Noble Robot]

The Prius has the same mileage as my girfriends Daihatsu but without 2 engine systems, tonns of electronics and expensive (and extreamly enviroment unfriendly) batteries.
So what is the benefit?

Okay, now it's personal ;-)

You're exaggerating a bit here. My Prius gets 50 MPG in the summer. It's rated at 45hwy/48city under the new EPA rating. The best rating I could find for any Daihatsu using The Google was 46hwy/36city, and I think that was under the old EPA system (correct me if I'm wrong). Just one of the principal advantages of a Hybrid is that you never "idle" your engine at stop lights, it just turns off, which, let me tell you, adds up quite a bit.

Good mileage is great, but low emissions is key. The Prius is a mid-sized sedan, has more space than an Accord, and (more importantly) is a Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle.

So a small car like a Geo Metro might get good mpg, and there are surely some tiny niche cars that get better overall mileage even, but the Prius makes none of the standard "compromises" that previous hybrids have had to make (small size, featherweight construction, no frills like power windows, etc), and it's still rated as not just the most efficient production car in the world, but also as the most environmentally friendly in terms of production and lifecycle.

And as to "environmentally unfriendly" batteries, that was an Internet myth pushed by conservative political groups, and then quickly retracted by even those same groups. It's 100% bunk.

See this link.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled nonsense.

 

[filmman]

If anybody cares: I did a reverse telecine on one of the clips from my feature film Butterflies in the Wind and it worked! My entire 100 minute movie was captured from DVCAM and ended up as 29.97 fps on my FCP timeline, which was heartbreaking But now that I did the reverse telecine it looks great as 23.98!

I also exported the clip as a 24p (de-interlaced it via h.264 export to QT .mov) and the resulting clip looks brighter and smoother. When I click through it frame by frame it looks like clean individual frames. I'm amazed, but maybe I shouldn't have been.

I can do this to all my 35mm footage captured in my G5!

I didn't know how great this 24p could be ... oops! I'm in the wrong thread. Ayeee! LOL

 

[David Jimerson]

It has been technically and economically very feasible to shoot and project and higher frame rates for quite some time, and that dates back before everything became digital. But 24 fps isn't the cinematic standard because it's cheaper; it is because people don't want their movies looking like reality TV or soap operas.

When this argument comes up AGAIN 10 years from now, I think the fact that it HAS come up again will tell you all you need to know.

EDIT: Jack has an excellent point -- go into a big-box electronics store and watch the same movie being played on a standard HD display and one being played on a 120 Hz screen, and decide which one you like better. Me, I don't want Die Hard to look like Deal or No Deal.

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Come back when you understand what the word "function" means.

Ummm, so your argument is that I'm wrong, therefore I'm wrong. So, which of my statements are examples of accidental fallacy, and which are conversely accidental?

For someone who randomly cites logic concepts, you don't seem to be interested in building your argument using logical constructs. It really just seems like you've been putting Wikipedia and The Google though it's paces.

Listen, I tend to use them myself, but big words do not equal big thoughts.

If you can't use simple language to convey your thoughts, you have to qualify your "expensive" language, or else you look silly.

There you go conflating your arguments, again. Sigh, it's no use.

Hugs and Kisses.

I'll mark you down for surrender. :dankk2:

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

ESTEBEVERDE, those electric care examples are a good methapher, but your conclusion are backwards.

They make electric cars because they can (at least they try) not because it makes sense.

The Prius has the same mileage as my girfriends Daihatsu but without 2 engine systems, tonns of electronics and expensive (and extreamly enviroment unfriendly) batteries.
So what is the benefit?

The Volt is an other story, it´s now delayed till 1010 (if it ever show up in real live) because they can´t get a company that makes reliable and safe batteries.

...

It does make sense. They make them because it gives them a fuel cost that is equal to pennies per mile per gallon.

...

Same with framerates - it´s made because we can. Doesn´t mean that it makes any sense.

I stay with 24 because of artistic choise and audience demand

They can take 24 out of my dead, cold hands :evil:

Frank

No Framerates will change because of marketing demands and artistic choice.

I don't think anyone will care how you shoot your movie for a long time to come.

If it's a good movie they will love it.

It will only be after they are acculturated to higher framerates that they will say... that looks funny and so oldtimey?

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Okay, now it's personal ;-)

You're exaggerating a bit here. My Prius gets 50 MPG in the summer. It's rated at 45hwy/48city under the new EPA rating. The best rating I could find for any Daihatsu using The Google was 46hwy/36city, and I think that was under the old EPA system (correct me if I'm wrong). Just one of the principal advantages of a Hybrid is that you never "idle" your engine at stop lights, it just turns off, which, let me tell you, adds up quite a bit.

Good mileage is great, but low emissions is key. The Prius is a mid-sized sedan, has more space than an Accord, and (more importantly) is a Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle.

So a small car like a Geo Metro might get good mpg, and there are surely some tiny niche cars that get better overall mileage even, but the Prius makes none of the standard "compromises" that previous hybrids have had to make (small size, featherweight construction, no frills like power windows, etc), and it's still rated as not just the most efficient production car in the world, but also as the most environmentally friendly in terms of production and lifecycle.

And as to "environmentally unfriendly" batteries, that was an Internet myth pushed by conservative political groups, and then quickly retracted by even those same groups. It's 100% bunk.

See this link.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled nonsense.

Well... we here is one thing we agree on!

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

If anybody cares: I did a reverse telecine on one of the clips from my feature film Butterflies in the Wind and it worked! My entire 100 minute movie was captured from DVCAM and ended up as 29.97 fps on my FCP timeline, which was heartbreaking But now that I did the reverse telecine it looks great as 23.98!

I also exported the clip as a 24p (de-interlaced it via h.264 export to QT .mov) and the resulting clip looks brighter and smoother. When I click through it frame by frame it looks like clean individual frames. I'm amazed, but maybe I shouldn't have been.

I can do this to all my 35mm footage captured in my G5!

I didn't know how great this 24p could be ... oops! I'm in the wrong thread. Ayeee! LOL

Can you post this to vimeo with a description?

It would be cool to check out!

Thanks so much for posting about this!

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

It has been technically and economically very feasible to shoot and project and higher frame rates for quite some time, and that dates back before everything became digital. But 24 fps isn't the cinematic standard because it's cheaper; it is because people don't want their movies looking like reality TV or soap operas.

When this argument comes up AGAIN 10 years from now, I think the fact that it HAS come up again will tell you all you need to know.

EDIT: Jack has an excellent point -- go into a big-box electronics store and watch the same movie being played on a standard HD display and one being played on a 120 Hz screen, and decide which one you like better. Me, I don't want Die Hard to look like Deal or No Deal.

Yaaawwnnn...

Here to fore it has not been that easy to capture and playback at various framerates and it is more expensive when you are talking physical medium.

Much more.


24p will indeed be shot and exhibited for a time to come but it will be supplanted whether you like it or not.

There is more to a pleasing look than 24p judder.

 

[Postmaster]

Okay, now it's personal ;-)
My Prius gets 50 MPG in the summer. It's rated at 45hwy/48city under the new EPA rating.

O.K. you asked for it ;-)

The U.K. Sunday Times did a comparison of the Prius with a BMW 520d SE in long distance town and country driving. The results showed that the BMW with a 177 bhp averaged 50.3 mpg whilst the Prius averaged 48.1 mpg.

My girlfiends Daihatsu Curoe 1.0 E 3d makes at least 53 mpg if not more
http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/specs/summary.aspx?model=165&page=3

The Daihatsu Charade even gets 68.9 mpg.

Mileage relates directly to emission.
There is no such thing like an zero emmission car.
If you drive on batteries the fuel engine had to run before to charge them.
(and yeah, I know the Prius also charges them while breaking).

Oh, and you can buy at least 3 Cuores for one Prius.

And NOW back on 24P before they throw us out of that thread for hijacking :beer:

 

[The Noble Robot]

Mileage relates directly to emission.

Yes, but (and ESTEBEVERDE will probably not understand this) emissions are not a function of mileage (see, I'm trying to stay on topic ). There are many things that reduce emissions, mileage being very important among them, but it also relates to engine efficiency and other modern emissions-reducing technologies (of which I am not qualified to detail, sorry).

California has ratings standards which are applied to all cars in the US, and the Prius rates as a AT-PZEV (or Advanced Technology Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle). This rating is not about only the hybrid system, because to get this standard, the car must also qualify for SULEV standard (Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle), which emits 90% less than a standard engine (regardless of mileage).

Now, you are right that charging the battery uses fuel, but it uses it far more efficiently than it would powering the engine, by many factors. That's how a four-door sedan with larger-than-average cargo space can equal the mileage as your tiny Curoe (and I still think that you're citing the old-style EPA estimates, where the Prius scores 60/55mpg).

Listen, my wife's 1998 Honda Civic gets nearly 42mpg, a small scooter can get 100mpg, and those tiny (called "sub-micro") cars you cite can indeed get better mileage. I'm not arguing that the Prius has the best mileage on the planet (in fact, the old dinky two-door Honda Insight gets better even though it uses a less efficient engine), I'm arguing, as many auto experts consistently say, that the Prius is the most efficient production car on the market, and I can haul my entire film production (light kits, flags, camera, computer system, pro tripod, dolly system, c-stands, etc..) in it!

That scooter may get great mileage, but it's a dirty, dirty engine. I don't know much about the tech used in Daihatsus, but imagine if a Prius' engine was in your girlfriend's tiny car!

Oh, and you can buy at least 3 Cuores for one Prius

That's why we don't all own Priuses, uh, Priuii? And it's why we don't have ultra-sub-compact cars with 150mpg, because the systems are still expensive, and the milegage on those cars are already pretty good. So there's no use. This gets back to my argument with ESTEBEVERDE and the Jetsons Fallacy.

And NOW back on 24P before they throw us out of that thread for hijacking :beer:

No, it's ESTEBEVERDE with all his "hugs and kisses" snarkyness and strings of multiple postings that have made this thread a mess.

It's funny, because he thinks he's being witty, but personal insults and snark only sting when you know someone personally. He'd really just conceding that he can't defend his argument. This is sad, because it's actually a defensible argument (hear that, ESTEBEVERDE??)

You'd think for a person who is as vastly outnumbered as he is, he'd be less declarative and try to change some minds, rather than just yell at us.

 

[filmman]

The car industry is huge and yet there are so many models and environmental issues that make it impossible for anyone to win an argument. There are only two of you talking about cars here and look how many types of cars you're talking about?

The camera and frame rate discussion is very small in comparison; i.e., lots less money involved in this industry. But still we need to narrow the technology down, otherwise we won't be able to make movies and exhibit them successfully; we're going to be decimated by the major producers who are going to choke the living daylights out of us with their standards and technological clout. In other words, they'll buy us out and push us aside. If we're working in one medium and delivering in one format, we can be a lot stronger. If we could only agree to go back to 35mm film. Just a thought

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

O.K. you asked for it ;-)

The U.K. Sunday Times did a comparison of the Prius with a BMW 520d SE in long distance town and country driving. The results showed that the BMW with a 177 bhp averaged 50.3 mpg whilst the Prius averaged 48.1 mpg.

My girlfiends Daihatsu Curoe 1.0 E 3d makes at least 53 mpg if not more
http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/specs/summary.aspx?model=165&page=3

The Daihatsu Charade even gets 68.9 mpg.

Mileage relates directly to emission.
There is no such thing like an zero emmission car.
If you drive on batteries the fuel engine had to run before to charge them.
(and yeah, I know the Prius also charges them while breaking).

Oh, and you can buy at least 3 Cuores for one Prius.

And NOW back on 24P before they throw us out of that thread for hijacking :beer:

BMW 520d SE A+++++++++++++++!!!! :beer:

 

[J.R. Hudson]

Yaaawwnnn...

Here to fore it has not been that easy to capture and playback at various framerates and it is more expensive when you are talking physical medium.

Much more.


24p will indeed be shot and exhibited for a time to come but it will be supplanted whether you like it or not.

There is more to a pleasing look than 24p judder.

Please refrain from the hugs and kisses and the yawns. It's coming across as condesending Este.

And how's that ?

Who wants their footy looking like a soap opera or reality show ? Do you ?

This thread is growing tired.

Tell me.

The frame rates are there for you now. You wanna shoot 60p ? Shoot it.

Who really wants their **** looking like anything but 24 at this point in time ?

And this prediction you seem to be latched on, how's that ? Where is the industry pointing in this direction ?

I of course referring to narrative feature work and not news gathering or sporting events.

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Please refrain from the hugs and kisses and the yawns. It's coming across as condesending Este.

And how's that ?

Who wants their footy looking like a soap opera or reality show ? Do you ?

This thread is growing tired.

Tell me.

The frame rates are there for you now. You wanna shoot 60p ? Shoot it.

Who really wants their shi* looking like anything but 24 at this point in time ?

And this prediction you seem to be latched on, how's that ? Where is the industry pointing in this direction ?

I of course referring to narrative feature work and not news gathering or sporting events.

I do appreciate your sentiment and sensibilities J.R. Hudson, but they might be more respected and appreciated if they were consistently and universally applied to all in this thread.

Not just those who you happen to disagree with.

You know, fairness and even handedness and all.




As to shooting in varies frame rates and displaying in those framerates it is certain many will.



Surely you are not saying all 24p footage is equal are you?

Is there really just one magic setting on a camera that says 24p and all else is gone?

What about exposure, latitude, grain, resolution, DOF, bokeh, color timing, contrast, sharpness, etc., etc, etc, etc, ad infinitum....


Are really saying that no combinations in the world will be pleasing unless they have a 24p frame rate?


If so, I have to reject that notion completely.


I can understand you are growing tired of this thread.


I have said what I have to say and I resolutely stand by it.


That's pretty much the long and short of it.

 

[Luis Caffesse]

I have said what I have to say and I resolutely stand by it.

That's pretty much the long and short of it.

Well then - I guess this conversation has run it's course.