24p I still do not get it?

[Chris Klidonas]

Sorry if this is in the wrong place, I was not sure where to ask it.

As for the 24P cameras I understand the slower rate matches the film rate and causes the blur that better emulates film cameras frame rate.

So here are the points I am still after months of reading not understanding.

Some cameras shoot 24 and capture 24 and you see and edit 24, but the tv can play 60i so where does that change occur? This is cameras like a canon XLH1


Other cameras shoot 24 but capture it in a 60i and you see 24 on a tv but in order to edit it you need to do a pull down to make it just 24 not in a 60i ?

Is that right? and if so what difference does that make in editing?

And if you capture the 24 without the pull down, and edit it and then render a 24 movie for dvd which sees it at 60i does it matter?

What do you see visibly different? what are the problems with not doing a pull down?

What happens if you shoot 60i instead of 24 then edit it and render a 24 video for dvd?

I will tell you my issues, I don't see the major differences, but then I am not the only final viewer so I want to do it right. I shoot with the XLH1 and an HV20 and HG10, I know the XLH1 is fine, the others need to have a pull down, I do not do that yet, but I edit and output to a 24 HD-mov, or HD-wmv, or SD-dvd. I am thinking of a possible upgrade to a flash camera, either the HF10 or the SR11, the SR11 seems to have every benefit but 24p mode, and the hf10 has 24 but needs a pulldown, which I still do not understand at all.

What difference will I really see between shooting 24 in a 60i and not doing a proper pulldown, and doing a proper pulldown, and a camera that does not need the pulldown as it shoots it as 24, and finally a camera that shoots 60i only and is rendered in the final edit as 24? And if it helps I am using Sony Vegas 8 to edit and gearshift to make sd proxies and edit.

One other thing, if shooting in 24p is it better to shoot in 1/24 or 1/48? it seems the smaller canons want to default to 1/24th when in Aperture priority mode.

I am really sorry, it just seems that every answer I read is above my ability to follow or does not give any reasons for why or what the real difference is only you need to do this because type answers. I am sure there are reasons, and I really want to understand it, I think I just need one slow easy to follow answer designed for dummies to help me get the initial concept.

I hope someone can help.

Thanks


Chris Klidonas

 

[Barry_Green]

Some cameras shoot 24 and capture 24 and you see and edit 24, but the tv can play 60i so where does that change occur? This is cameras like a canon XLH1

Well, first of all, many TVs can play 24P. Many flatscreens (plasmas, LCDs, DLPs, D-ILA, all the new progressive technologies) can play 24P. Only CRT televisions are really native to 60i.

So -- the conversion to 60i happens when you send the video signal out on a composite or s-video connector, or an analog component connection from a non-progressive source. The conversion is done by either the camcorder or the DVD player.

If you author a 24P DVD and play it on a progressive DVD player through progressive component outputs to a progressive television, then there is not any conversion to 60i.

Other cameras shoot 24 but capture it in a 60i and you see 24 on a tv but in order to edit it you need to do a pull down to make it just 24 not in a 60i ?

Yes, some cameras have a built-in system of embedding the 24P into 60i during recording. Basically all cameras do it that way, there are very very few that record JUST the 24P signal. Your NLE software can strip out the pulldown and revert the footage to 24P from most any source.

and if so what difference does that make in editing?

None. As long as your editor is 24P-aware and can strip out the pulldown.

And if you capture the 24 without the pull down, and edit it and then render a 24 movie for dvd which sees it at 60i does it matter?

DVD players can play 24P content. No reason to convert it to 60i. If the DVD player is playing to an interlaced display, the DVD player itself will do the conversion to 60i.

What do you see visibly different? what are the problems with not doing a pull down?

24P DVDs on a 24P television just look better. No interlaced line twitter.

What happens if you shoot 60i instead of 24 then edit it and render a 24 video for dvd?

Then you get a cheesy fake simulation of 24P. Can look fine depending on how you do the conversion.

What difference will I really see between shooting 24 in a 60i and not doing a proper pulldown, and doing a proper pulldown, and a camera that does not need the pulldown as it shoots it as 24, and finally a camera that shoots 60i only and is rendered in the final edit as 24?

Depends largely on what kind of TV you intend to view the footage on. If it's an interlaced tube TV, you probably won't see all that much difference. If it's a progressive TV, the difference can be more substantial.

One other thing, if shooting in 24p is it better to shoot in 1/24 or 1/48? it seems the smaller canons want to default to 1/24th when in Aperture priority mode.

1/48 gives a more filmlike look than 1/24, which many consider to be unnaturally blurry.

 

[Chris Klidonas]

Thank you that cleared up a lot of the confusion.

I am still lost in regards to the cameras that shoot a 24 in a 60i and programs like vegas that do not recognize it from the smaller cameras, I know its not a problem with my larger cameras but the smaller hv20, hg10 and hf10 all need a pulldown removal, other than neo hd which is a 600.00 cost for the version best suited for me since the hf10 does 1920x1080 and that seems very high for just that one conversion. I would not be using the cineform files really since I use and prefer to work on SD proxies using gearshift, so I would be converting to cineform for the 24p than making sd proxies and editing then swap out and render the finals.

I am now looking for another less expensive option, but how needed is that pulldown to a vegas workflow? I mean if I edit the work and render a 24p in a 60i without the pulldown out to a final of 24p in say a mov or wmv file does it look bad? Is it worth the 600.00 neohd price? Sadly there are so many other things I still need to get with that money, such as a decent music program, so I am wondering if that is a necessity now.

 

[Sithxace]

def cleared some things up for me too lol. The thing i always thought was hey wbhhy are people like going wow over cams so expensive cuz it does 24p.. y not save ur money shoot with a cheaper non 24p can and put that into a 24p timeline and render it 24p but i understand more now.