2021 - What would be your documentary setup and why?

G

Guest

Guest
2019 to present has seen a fairly noticeable improvement on cameras across the board. Time to revamp the documentary wish list based on what is now possible.

To me, the obvious new options are the Fx6 and Fx3/S3 duo. so much to work with in a wide variety of needs. only downside is no s35 4K. So, longer zooms become a bit more restricted.

But what elsenis available? how is GoPro doing compared to the competition these days? better to just get a Zcam?

This is a free for all, so all types of doc shooting and gear is on the table.
 
I thought that the original C100 was great for documentary work with its small form factor, NDs, and center-weighted AF. I haven't used the C70 for doc work yet, but I suspect that it would be even better. I already know that it attracts less attention than any cinema camera I've owned, including the C100. People just think it's a DSLR. I have the 0.7x focal reducer semi-permanently affixed to the 24-105 f/4 ii and a regular EF-RF adapter on the 70-200 f/4. It's probably not the best choice for handheld work, but putting the camera on my shoulder gets it too high up anyway (I',m 6'3"). I wish I'd had this camera during the big protests here in Portland last summer.

The FX6/3 would probably be excellent too. Admittedly I haven't studied up on Sony's offerings.

Or for a really inexpensive and covert option (although, not Netflix Approved), I think that a camera like the FZ2500 could work well with its long zoom and built-in NDs. But I've never used one.
 
I think I'd prefer the FX9 to the FX6. And the A7SIII to the fx3 just because it has the built-in EVF which is very convenient. (Or hell maybe the A1 if money is no obstacle, but I haven't looked closely at it.)

Partly, I guess it depends on if you need the last stop of gain you can probably get with fx6/a7siii over fx9/a1.

They really, really missed the boat not putting ND in the fx3.

Re:gopro, z cam etc, don't we want internal ND if possible? Or you're talking about the best camera for stashing in a corner? And then of course there's the pocket 6K pro but it still seems like a bit of a bear for doc even with the EVF and ND.
 
Blackmagic is great if you have a certain amount of control, but i’m sort of unsure how i feel about the reliability for A cam work. i’ve really liked the BmP4K with DZO 10-22 and 20-70 setup. have two bodies and the pair of lenses and just go.
 
abe any reason you like the Fx9 better? i like the fx9 for the crop to s35. so handy.
 
I do a lot of docu-style work (more a fusion of short form docu style branding films) overseas, so I'll just share some off the cuff thoughts and insights from my personal experience. I don't work on large teams so size/weight/portability is particularly important especially with travel.

I use the S1H and before that GH5 travelling, and also own a GH5s and EVA1. If I was buying fresh now, I would be heavily interested in the Sony packages for sure. Fantastic looking setup.

Some unorganized thoughts...

CAMERAS/LENSES

If you need AF Panasonic is out, so, there's that. I don't and I actually shoot all my docu stuff manual focus.

I don't think I could handle the docu style work flow nearly as well without IBIS, it was a total game changer. I loved everything about the GH5s except that it didn't have IBIS, which really limited it's application for me. I think a GH5s with IBIS would have been the perfect docu camera at release, but I've used the S1H instead as that is essentially what it is with better codecs (and Full Frame of course). While I love the image quality, Full Frame is hard to travel with if you're bring more than a couple lenses. I loved having 7 lenses and 2 M43 bodies with in an international carry on bag, and depending on what happens with a GH6, I'd be extremely interested in that camera with the 10-25 f/1.7 lens.

The EVA1 for docu work seems... hard. Yes it has the built in ND filters which you'd think are a godsend shooting docu, but in reality the menu systems were far too slow for me to work with in very fast paced environments vs the quick access DSLR style buttons. Also, the ND filters were never quite right - not strong enough to get enough light stoppage outdoors in bright light, and the increments meant I couldn't keep to a fixed shutter/apeture as I like to stylistically. So I've found the step-up rings to 77mm or 82mm + Manfrotto Xume rings + VND filters work very well. The stepless adjustments mean I can lock in my shutter and apeture and just adjust the VND, and the xume filters make lenses changes painless.

Sony's electronic VND may solve this, but as far as the FX6, I am not sure your shooting style, but if I was doing docu stuff a non IBIS camera like that means I need to lug around a tripod/monopod everywhere, or perhaps an easyrig, or a shoulder rig, or just break my back all day which gets tough overseas in the heat, especially when I want stability.

The A series would probably be my choice from Sony. So the FX3 is interesting, because I believe it adds fans for cooling like the S1H which seems like a must if you're shooting say in India, or south pacific, etc. But then it dumps the EVF, and I've sort of fallen in love with shooting through the EVF these days because it has solved all of my issues with needing ultra bright LCD screens or 3rd party monitors and it keeps the package small and light, and gives me a stable point of contact. The S1H has the fans and EVF in one unit and maybe the Sony's would do just as well but I have put Panasonic cameras through hell in the harshest environments and never, ever, ever once had one of them overheat and I am talking about death defying heat and humidity shooting in 4k60p 10-bit codecs for 8 hour days, etc. So... that's cool. Plus the S1H does have an S35 4k mode, and you can use the Sigma 18-35 lens on it and that combo is truly brilliant.

OTHER GEAR

Thinktank belt system with lens caddies, and also check out their shoulder sling bags etc. This is killer for docu field work, just throw my favorite lenses on the belt, battery changes and lens cleaning supplies, filters, memory cards etc. and kit out with Thinktank gear. That stuff has been bullet proof for me and so well thought through.

Apeture lighting gear has a ton of great travel solutions for lighting. LS1 for a bigger light that packs flat, and they have a few credit card sized lights that are powerful.

Matthews has some very sleek travel stands, I bring 4 of these: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/502683-REG/Matthews_B387486_Reverse_Stand_7.html

For lighting, I'll use grid cloth instead of diffuser boxes because they pack down so small, and just clip it between two stands. And the LS1 larger light on the 3rd stand to shine through the cloth. I tell you that is a rocking portable setup that can get you a solid lighting on any interview subject, you can also rent some v mount batteries on site if needed.

The fourth stand for audio, I just adapt the top of the fourth stand to hold a boom pole which the stand itself is not strong enough to support, but with the help of an assistant they can hold it steady without breaking their back for a longer interview. Although I usually try to rent the c-stand on site for that, this works when you have got to be very portable.

I like the Sennheiser MKH8060 for my shotgun as it can work pretty well indoors too (I have a MKH50 as well but for docu I only bring the 8060 as it can handle it all).

I always, always shoot my audio into MixPre6 II with 32-bit float. With docu having 32-bit is key because you can't clip it and I don't have a dedicated sound person. It's sort of like cheating. Tascam 10DRL (I think thats the model) have worked well for support but today I would choose the new zoom model with 32-bit float recording.

For a lot of my accessory gear I just pack it into a hardshell Samsonite case and use padded lens wraps and I have never broken any of the support equipment I've put in there (travel tripod, blimp, stands, etc. etc.).

/////////////////////////////

Well, just some scattered thoughts. What kind of docu work are you shooting? Happy to share any other things that have worked for my personal endeavors.
 
QuickHitRecord said:
I thought that the original C100 was great for documentary work with its small form factor, NDs, and center-weighted AF. I haven't used the C70 for doc work yet, but I suspect that it would be even better. I already know that it attracts less attention than any cinema camera I've owned, including the C100. People just think it's a DSLR. I have the 0.7x focal reducer semi-permanently affixed to the 24-105 f/4 ii and a regular EF-RF adapter on the 70-200 f/4. It's probably not the best choice for handheld work, but putting the camera on my shoulder gets it too high up anyway (I',m 6'3"). I wish I'd had this camera during the big protests here in Portland last summer.

The FX6/3 would probably be excellent too. Admittedly I haven't studied up on Sony's offerings.

Or for a really inexpensive and covert option (although, not Netflix Approved), I think that a camera like the FZ2500 could work well with its long zoom and built-in NDs. But I've never used one.
Click to expand...

The C70 is definitely a short list type of camera. i really like what was considered going into it. i like the idea of that and an R5. get those wide establishing shots in stunning 8K full frame, and then follow the action and drama with the svelt C70. pair it with a 25-250? haha.
 
@filmguy123,

really fantastic observations!

The Panasonic S1H EVF is a game changer in that formfactor. i think the Fx3 went a different rought, and a diopter starts to create points of failure. but i had a Canon 60D flip out screen last me through some months, so maybe i could live with it again. but i really almost bought the S1H the second i put my eye to that lovely evf. o hope more cameras inprove in that regard, now that DSLR may be on the outs.

and i am a big fan of M43 for doc. i just wish they would make more extreme zooms for doc use. like Canon or Fujinon, but utilizing m43. DZO made their zooms compact and affordable, but 70mm on the long end is not game changer territory.

i’ll go back through your suggestjons. a lot of sage wisdom in there!
 
have you guys seen “Hoop Dreams”? old sports doc, but i was kind of enjoying the old 90’s video look. kind of rad what they were able to accomplish.

Anything specific in what sort of looks the gear gives you, or any references to documentaries?

i also really love the 8mm and 16mm documentaries i’ve seen. but now with insanely good glass and an 8K camera an entirely different set of possibilities is upon us.


for the general idea of this thread, i know i am thinking a bit more traditional doco, in the sense that battery life and long zoom range are ideal, but also compact and cinematic are too, and that creates a but of a conflict in possibilities. a long super compact cinematic zoom doesn’t really exist. although, an Fx3 on a Lomo anamorphic 50-200mm is kind of cool. haha, but that minimum focus probably not so much.
 
Last edited:
James0b57 said:
follow the action and drama with the svelt C70. pair it with a 25-250? haha.
Click to expand...

that would be kind of hilarious and awesome

James0b57 said:
abe any reason you like the Fx9 better? i like the fx9 for the crop to s35. so handy.
Click to expand...

If the money is coming out of my pocket, I'd get the FX6 because I think it's a better value. And it has some advantages in its own right - frame rates, sensitivity, rolling shutter speed, weight, raw out.

But if none of those is a dealbreaker, I think the FX9 will give you not only the 4K S35 crop which is super handy in run and gun, but also a more detailed picture uncropped which might give you more of an option to crop in in post. And while I'd have to take a closer look again to make a thorough comparison and a final decision, I think the body may be better suited to shoulder shooting (not that you can't do it with the FX6) and it has XLRs on the body if you want to take the handle off. And there have been various reports of little missing features here or there that the FX9 has but the FX6 doesn't (can't remember off the top of my head, but people mention them now and again - shooting modes, etc.) Some people say they like the color and IQ better of the FX9, but I haven't done a deep dive into it.

James0b57 said:
Sone G series lenses are looking rather interesting.
Click to expand...

Which ones? The new cine zooms?
 
like the G master 12-24mm f2.8. that on an Fx6, and what fever dream sort of craziness is possible with that? pretty cool.
 
fx9 does look better SOOC than A7s3.

i’ve compared those, and there is a difference. i also really like the F55, but obviously low light. but i really think the F55 has stayed relevant.

but yeah, money no object, Fx9 + A7s3 over the Fx6. but i’d have to test. i’d be apprehensive about commiting to Ff35, just thinkingnof the long zooms.
 
James, sure thing!

Yes the S1H EVF is great. I certainly wouldn't write it off if you don't need the big 3 of the A7Siii: AF, 120fps, uncropped FF 4k60p (I'm sure there's a couple other boons there as well, just what I see as the big 3). In exchange on the S1H you net the EVF + Fan/Heat Reliability, S35 4K crop mode, 6k for cropping in post, and the best UI I've used on a camera (though I hear the new sony's have improved quite a bit but I have no hands on experience). It's the best camera I've owned and just fantastic. Full Frame + Lenses is definitely heavier than m43 but that's equitable across all FF bodies.

Re: m43 zooms, what do you think of the Leica 50-200? I have that lens and I think it's great, incredible reach for how compact it is (it's a 100-400 FF equivalent with Dual IS and can get handheld results at full zoom that work well). That plus the Lumix 10-25 f/1.7 would be very nice (or perhaps the Leica 12-60). For more extreme you have the Leica 100-400, haven't used it though. And then the new but extremely expensive Olympus 150-400 (300-800 FF equiv): https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1574176-REG/olympus_m_zuiko_digital_ed_150_400mm.html (it actually gets to 1000mm FF equiv using the built in 1.25x TC as well)
 
What am I documenting? Freestyle Running or meth addiction?

That is going to be a big factor. I might want the most discreet, low footprint camera package possible. There it might be the FX3.

If the challenge is to choose one camera for any and all type of doc, maybe the FX6 with FF, AF lenses. Sony G.
 
James0b57 said:
like the G master 12-24mm f2.8. that on an Fx6, and what fever dream sort of craziness is possible with that? pretty cool.
Click to expand...

I got the 12-24 f/4 G version recently. The f/2.8 version seemed to be sharper and have better corners. But the distortion at the wide end seemed about the same on both lenses, which is my biggest priority on an ultra-wide, so I decided to save the cash and get the f/4. The range is really nice for tight interiors and also for the stupid vertical shooting I'm required to do where a 12mm comes out to a frame width of a 21.3mm if my calculations are correct.

I love what the AF will do for me in those situations because even though the focus pulls are easy, using AF lets me keep both hands on the gimbal handles to aid my stability and operating.

And while the zoom range is nice to have, I do miss using my Laowa zero-d 12mm f/2.8. It had waaay less distortion and was sharper and faster
 
James0b57 said:
fx9 does look better SOOC than A7s3.

i’ve compared those, and there is a difference. i also really like the F55, but obviously low light. but i really think the F55 has stayed relevant.

but yeah, money no object, Fx9 + A7s3 over the Fx6. but i’d have to test. i’d be apprehensive about commiting to Ff35, just thinkingnof the long zooms.
Click to expand...

I doubt there's a huge IQ difference between FX6/FX3/a7SIII although not being able to turn off NR in the A7SIII is so stupid.

Yeah the zoom department for FF is pretty lacking. I have the 28-135 but it has some shortcomings and doesn't go that long. Tamron makes a pretty darn good 28-200 but obviously a stills lens not a cine lens so no servo and crappy mechanics...ramping and probably breathing and probably variable distortion. And no IS.

Also, filmguy123 mentioned how much he likes IBIS. Sony's is much worse than Panasonic's. Active IBIS evens the score a bit but then you lose in-camera distortion correction. You do have catalyst browse gyro stabilization, but with its own drawbacks.
 
filmguy123 said:
. In exchange on the S1H you net the EVF + Fan/Heat Reliability, S35 4K crop mode, 6k for cropping in post, and the best UI I've used on a camera (though I hear the new sony's have improved quite a bit but I have no hands on experience).
Click to expand...

Don't forget that the A7SIII has a great EVF too. Heat reliability has been good for me. Supposedly the Achilles heel is intense direct sunlight. There are probably effective ways to shield it, though. Not sure how much ambient temperature matters. I like the menus and the body custom buttons a lot.
 
I have the F55. Every time I think it can't stay up with my P6K, it proves me wrong. Even the low light is decent if you use a STD 709 profile and don't use SLog. Every time I think its 4K native sensor won't be sharp, it is sharp. It's got a deep bag of tricks, more than the F5 or FS7, some ways more than FX9 if global shutter or Sony Raw is considered. The body and mount are strong. I picked up an AXS-R5 recorder for very little, got my AXSM memory cards on eBay auction, card reader. The 16 bit linear raw is 3:1 wavelet, the legal target that Red first aimed its sights on, wanted all units destroyed, Lol. It has Cine-EI of course but also Custom mode that includes S-Log3 but also S-gamut3.Cine-Like, an exclusive 709 color space combination that is a version of Slog3/S-gamut3.Cine in a smaller 709 envelope, the benefit being that you can apply actual gain and white balance whereas anything you would do in Cine-EI is always locked to base ISO 1250 and one of three default WB temps. Custom mode is where you find your better low light performance, not great, but passable. And it has good frame rates, great audio, timecode, genlock. You said it right, it remains relevant. What's inescapable is it's heavy, the only lenses I have for it are the SCL-PK6/F Cine-Alta PL mount Primes which are great lenses, made in Japan, color matched T2.0 nine blade aperture, metal housings but very heavy. And I have one Red Pro Prime 300mm T2.9 which is really a great lens too. But everything is heavy, making the rig with matte box about 26 lbs. It's a load on your shoulder, have the bicycle handlebars. It takes a lot of juice, especially with RAW it can chew through a V-mount battery in under an hour.

But all that said (whew), the P6K is the preferable documentary camera for me. It's less kit, lighter, takes image stabilized zoom lenses and runs 7 hours on one V-mount battery while leaving the camera powered-on, never turning it off. And it shoots a long recording time too, on USB SSD. I can hand hold it, or put it on sticks. I have a SmallRig LCD screen hood that is very practical, the V-mount battery, coiled cord, it even charges the internal battery so hot swapping the V-mount if it ever became necessary, it hasn't. And the price, and the images, all that is just the beginning. BRAW is so sweet, the new Gen5 color science is really good; the seamless way the BRAW workflow flows in Resolve, not one thing, but the whole package is what makes the value. I'm going to follow your input on the Speed Editor with a purchase to make it even better.

I very much like the A7SIII and A1, great cams, green with envy of the AF but looking at my footage, I seem to be doing pretty well manually but AF would relieve some stress and anxiety that I always have about blowing it. But it would be expensive for me to dive into another system and another lens ecosystem, and hard to give up internal RAW or go back to XAVC.
 
Last edited:
JPNola said:
What am I documenting? Freestyle Running or meth addiction?

That is going to be a big factor. I might want the most discreet, low footprint camera package possible. There it might be the FX3.

If the challenge is to choose one camera for any and all type of doc, maybe the FX6 with FF, AF lenses. Sony G.
Click to expand...

i’m sort of interestednin new possibilities. i kind of love what can be done with the Komodo, being global shutter and small. takes the jello and strobe out of the equation when considering shots.

Nikon announced a crazy new 1” sensor with 1000fos and 22stops DR, has anything been released that is similar?

QHR also touched on those crazy Nikon power zoom cameras. i’ll check out the video quality on those, but they give an interesting option to capture a perspective that is rarely done.

there was that nature doc, that used A7sii to shoot some of the wild life stuff at night. something that previously was more of a “night vision” camera sort of thing, took on a cinematic edge.

i feel the bread and butter of drama is not going to change much. And some things, like shooting sports or nature sort of demand a long zoom.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top