2 XLR inputs H4N Zoom

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stremini

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Stereo mode xlr inputs should work simultaneously voice and guitar but they do not
:lipsrseal I read all I could at dvx before posting and especially the technical support by Tim, however I cannot get my new zoom h4n to record my guitar xlr input and voice, sure 58 microphone with other xlr input simultaneously in stereo mode. I do not want the 4 channel mode as this stereo mode is perfect for just recording guitar and voice....top quality....
I did try the other modes but I want no room noise and I do not want to plug in via the mixer as my studio is far from my home where I record basic voice and guitar demos. I did try the 4 channel mode but here too it only picks up either voice or guitar in the external mics and the onboard mics ...quality drops considerably.
Now while I can hear one output at a time....meaning first the guitar....then the voice, I cannot record simultaneously voice and guitar by connecting the xlr jacks simulaneously as the instruction booklet suggests.
I also read the suggestions by tim in 4 channel mode

Use the scroll wheel to select one of four mixing options:
  1. Built-in Mic Level
  2. Built-in Mic Pan Control
  3. External Mic Level (the XLR-1/4" inputs)
  4. External Mic Pan Control
however my version 1.40 only has the first two listed accessible via the scroll wheel to mixer setting and not external mic level and external mic pan control

I spent two days trying to solve the issue.
Also the 4 channel only records the guitar and external mikes and not the voice input via a sure mike xlr cable as I mentioned previously.

Could it be that I have to get a splitter or I need a Y-cable with two 1/4 plugs.
But Zoom claims this is not necessary and that is why I bought the H4n

Any suggestions would be welcome as I need to get a demo out to a producer with my new songs as soon as possible and this zoom h4n which was hailed to be simple is truly a nightmare. I have seen other songwriters who have successfully used the stereo mode with external mikes hooked up to xlr with no problems. I cannot even get the minidisk sony 1/4 mic to work plugged in the back.
Could there be a problem in the device being faulty? Or am I doing things wrong.
Any advice would be welcome. I only needed a simple digital recorder but this for me is only a hassle which is preventing me from continuing with recording and songwriting. It is not simple to use or perhaps it is not working or I need perhaps to use one xlr jack for the guitar and another type of jack for the voice microphone input...
As I said I do not want to use an external mixer or the onboard mikes as they pick up room noise which I do not need. I only bought the device as it advertised the possibility of using two external mikes simultaneously whether these be voice (and my microphone is a dynamic a sure 58), and a guitar or guitar and keyboard or whaterver.

Thanks again for your valuable help.
 
Can you clarify EXACTLY how you're trying to record the guitar?

Are we talking 1/4" straight into the zoom? Through DI Box? Some random adapter cable? A mic sitting in front of the guitar?

The jacks on the H4n are combo jacks - that is a 3-pin XLR jack AND a 1/4" TRS jack. From your post, I'm not 100% clear on how you're wiring this all up.
 
Actually you are right there are two types microphone jacks one is an xlr and one is a female/male...I tried two xlr Jordan....meaning the male ones....
Now I just remembered I have a female/male jack to the microphone maybe that is the problem...
The guitar picks up the xlr signal okay...the voice microphone does not pick up any signal
or it does if the guitar xlr jack is unplugged. I think it is a matter of changing type of cable connection to the xlr input... i hope i was clearer...
the second option is here below but it gets rather complicated...thanks Jordan

h4n_tit09.jpg
[SIZE=-1]The H4n is the only handheld recorder that features built-in combination XLR/Phone connectors with phantom voltage source capability. With its Hi-Z inputs, you can record guitars or other line output sources such as mixing consoles. A separate external mic input supports plug-in power microphones.[/SIZE]
 
As it is 1 am in the morning my time I will try the female cable connection instead of the xlr to see if that is any good.
Like when you plug in the xlr in the mixer, the voice signal does not come out loud and clear as if you plug in male/female....if I could show you a picture it would be easier for me to explain ...I am the creative and zero technical person...but I light bulb just lit up in my brain that it could be a cable type issue as in a mixer type situation....not enough signal getting to the voice through that type of cable connection to the microphone
thanks again jordan...will update you tomorrow on this cable change....I cannot come up with any other idea at this stage....
 
I'm not sure you're clear on the names of the connections you're using, but if I under stand correctly, you're doing something like this:

You've got an H4n, and you want to record a vocal track with your SM58 and a guitar of some sort. The h4n has three possibly input connectors; XLR and 1/4" on the combo jacks, and 1/8" on the back to bypass the built-in mics.

Now, an SM58 has a typical 3-pin male xlr connector. You're connecting that to the H4n's first channel using a standard XLR-F to XLR-M cable. The guitar, presumably, has a 1/4" jack on it, so you're using a 1/4" to 1/4" instrument cable to connect that to the 2nd channel of the H4n, through the 1/4" female jack that is part of the combo jack. I think that might be where you're running into trouble.

I don't have an H4n, and I've only skimmed the manual a couple times, but my understanding is that in the stereo mode, the combo-jacks at the bottom of the unit work at the same input level. So maybe theres a problem with mic level vs line level or something going on? The way I read that blurb from Zoom, they don't actually come in and say that you can use an XLR mic and a line-level source at the same time.

Perhaps that can be avoided in 4-channel mode - again, I'm just taking guesses here. If you can get the input levels sorted to get mic and guitar working in 4-channel, you can always discard the other two channels (the built-in mics) later on using yor preferred multitrack software.

I think it might be good to confirm that both the jacks work when they're the same kind of input, say pluggin in a pair of mics to it, or a pair of guitars, or feeds from a board, whatever. Just something to confirm that both channels are in fact working.
 
Jordan you explained it technically right. I did another test and what happens is I changed cables on the microphone putting a male/female...and inverted the xlr outlets what I am getting is the voice out and almost inaudible guitar. This leads me to believe that one of the xlr outputs on the zoom is not picking up the signal simultaneously. If I plug it in to the left either voice or guitar it only picks up voice or guitar, if I plug it in to the right same problem.
They do not pick up voice and guitar simultaneously. So both jacks do not work if there is one microphone and one guitar. I cannot play two guitars simultaneously if that is what you are asking me to do. So you might be right problem with mic level and line level, presuming in my ignorance than line level means guitar and xlr mic means microphone. In four channel mode the levels work only picking up the voice or guitar from the onboard microphones picking up room noise and the guitar or voice but not both from the xlr input. So it is helpless. At this point I have no idea what to do. I saw some youtube tests where the xlr inputs were being used both for voice and guitar but I cannot find them anymore. I had saved them on my external hard disk two months ago, then I went overseas, came back and can't find the demos anywhere. Zoom is not replying to my sos emails. So I have no idea if I have a problem with the h4n xlr inputs or if it is a problem as you say with the different microphone and guitar jacks. In 4 channel mode it only picks up just the from xlr only either guitar and voice and the voice or guitar from the onboard mics which comes out like you are in a closed room type effect. Thanks so much for your time Jordan. So now what do I do?
 
Jordan I think I am finally picking up what you are saying after my test: in the xlr inputs either two condenser mics or two line ins guitar and piano say, but not one voice mic and one guitar jack. That is probably why there is a mini jack in the back. I tried running the minijack simultaneously with the guitar jack in but no luck there either.
So I think I might have to use either two condenser mics one for the guitar and one for the voice (Emma Lee came out with good work using the condenser option... don't know how she did it ...its on her youtube.com page) or the onboard mics or exchange it for a sony pcm d50 as for forums online.....as you say it will not accept two different types of inputs in the xlr externals. Excuse my non technological language. This is a huge nuissance. With the onboard mics I could not come up with any decent work at all. Actually it comes out mono and my mono setting is not set inside the zoom h4n. I will keep experimenting. Thanks for any additional adivce you might want to add. Very nice of you to help me.
 
I have come up with a near enough solution after 3 days of headaches. As you technically explained simultaneous xlr mic in and guitar in through the jacks you mention is not possible with the zoom H4n, so I by passed the problem in 4 channel mode by plugging in the minijack at the back of the zoom a Sony ECM-ms907 mic. Then I plugged in the guitar with the Xlr 1/4 jack. I used volume 83 for the voice close up to the ECM microphone and volume 35 for the guitar...the balance came out fine in the end depending on how close or far I got to the sony mic. The end result is not bad though not near enough to the results others have achieved by using the zoom for music purposes.
 
Glad you at least found a workaround for it. I would think a major market segment for the H4 / H4n would be trying to do exactly what you want to do with it - one mic, one guitar. Maybe Zoom will address it in a firmware update, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
 
Actually I listened through the headphones it was fine through the speakers the voice was too low and the guitar plugged into the xlr too loud....
Now reading the zoom publicity it says input for microphone phantom power and instrument through the xlr inputs. So this is false advertising in my books.
I read up on your very useful dvx info and these solutions are what I found.....not sure where to proceed from here. Basically the problem is that the guitar through xlr is perfect, stereo and all, while the voice recorded through the onboard mic and the minidisk mic in the back comes out very soft even turning the volume of the guitar in the xlr all the way down.
The onboard mics on their own come out mono.
Anyway this is what I found on your website....there has to be a way to hook up a microphone next to the guitar xlr input, either through a box for line input or what....

RESEARCH I FOUND:
Hi, the XLR inputs are not line level.

Re:can mic input be used with line level if it's the only input?

by Art - 13/02/04 23.11 In reply to: can mic input be used with line level if it's the only input? by frankzxcv Give it a try, it doesn't hurt but just remember most, if not all, mike input are monaural whereas the line input are usually stereo. So make sure to use the proper plug/s.

i need a line level microphone for the xlr

Matt Duncan wrote on Sun, 22 November 2009 22:38
Aside from accepting line level inputs, is there any difference in the sound quality of the pre-amps from the other 12 mic level ones?

My plan is to use an outboard phantom power box and Neutrik NP2C-T10AA plugs with the built in 1:10 transformer to convert the 4 line level inputs into regular mic pre-amps. Will this work the way I want it to?

Thanks!



No. Line level inputs require a much higher input voltage than mic level inputs.

Mic level input expect to see a level in the -30dB to -50dB range, line level is -10dB to +4dB. These are nominal levels.
Although these are line level inputs they do have enough gain to be used for high output mic sources. Such as drum mic's. I use these 4 inputs on toms 1-4. I just use a trs to xlr adaptor. The noise floor is quiet with the gain at around 2 o'clock. The input impedance is listed in the microphone range.

If you put a microphone in an xlr input with the pad on then with a trs to xlr adaptor go to a line level input the output and noise is very close to the same.

For live sound non studio work they work fine.
 
Some really strange things are going on. So as one last try.....stereo mode two channel, that is all I need.... I connected a phantom condenser boheringer microphone to the second xlr exit and a guitar in the first xlr exit. in the headphones the volumes and equalizer were perfect both during playing and when I listened back in the zoom h4n itself. Then I removed the sd card out plugged it into the PC and the PC could only hear the guitar part and not the voice both in Adobe audition and cubase....and in mp3 player
Could this be a flaw of my zoom.
This is the reply I received from zoom corporation

First of all, please accept our apologies for the trouble you have gone through.

Unfortunately, it's not a known problem because we haven't received this issue from another user so far.
Since we cannot judge the cause of the problem without direct diagnosis, please contact a local ZOOM distributor.
Your country's distributor will be found from the following link. They are taking care of ZOOM products.
http://www.zoom.co.jp/english/contact/03.php

Sincerely yours,
ZOOM Corporation.
 
PROBLEM SOLVED.
In stereo mode I could hear both the xlr input and Trs input for voice and guitar recorded at level 56 on zoom and turning down the pickup on board guitar the levels came out perfect. This using a condenser boheringer mike with phantom power at 48. No other effects.
The reason that I could only hear the guitar was because one of my speakers is gone on the desktop PC.
The guitar goes into the right channel and the voice into the left. Plugging into my laptop I realized that I could hear both guitar and voice, and I could also hear it through my headphones and I could also hear the work through the zoom headphones. So it was a PC issue not a zoom issue.
SO ZOOM H4N CAN RECORD SIMULTANEOUSLY IN STEREO MODE VOICE AND GUITAR USING XLR CONNECTOR CONDENSER VOICE MICROPHONE AND TRS FOR THE GUITAR PICK UP.
EUREKA..............
I Recorded in the lowest mp3 mode in stereo.....a bombshel of a recording wonderful....
Now all I need to do is fix the desktop speakers for mixing purposes or use my headphones in the meantime......
 
Isn't' it funny how you go around and around searching for an answer to why your technology isn't working, and then you remember to plug it in? :cool:

Glad to hear you found your solution. I've got the H2 and thinking of getting an H4n as well.
 
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