$2.5k budget (possibly a little more) for DSLR film shooting

[Bfilms]

I'm not gonna post about super cheap audio solutions. But I don't know much about audio either (like how does a wireless Lav system gets setup and recorded)?

I'd like to keep the budget around $2.5k, and get as close to production-level sound sound as possible...no cheap Zoom-level stuff, but I can't afford $4k units either.

What I was looking at:

Tascam DR-680 (Busman mod worth it?)
Rode NTG-3
Rode Lavalier
Sennheiser G3 system possibly

I know people with boom poles, cables and headphones, and have plenty of SD cards so those accessories will not factor into the budget.

What else would I need? I'd like to record 2-3 actors simultaneously with lavs if possible from a distance for some exterior scenes (no clue how to make it work though).

 

[dvxhutch]

First choice on a DSLR audio list should be SD mixpre-d ($750), great preamps and functionality.

Yes, Zoom is crappy to record into directly, but if you're using the mixpre-d in front of it, you can turn the zoom right down and get great sound into a cheaper recorder (although I'd recommend Tascam DR 40 or DR 100 over zoom any day).

NTG-3 is a great mic, similar to 416, but for indoors you want a hypercardioid, not a shotgun. The AT 4053b ($599) is a great choice.

If your outdoor scenes aren't too dialogue heavy, consider ADR. Most low budget/DSLR productions wouldn't consider it, but with a program like VOCALIGN PRO, you can rerecord the dialogue to 90% the correct timing, and the software will match it to the original audio track without changing pitch. Best money I ever spent on audio.

Good luck

 

[danbell222]

I'm in a similar situation as the OP---Currently I use a MixPre (not the D), the little Sony PCM-M10 recorder, and an NTG1 mic. I'm closing in on a microphone upgrade but am wondering: For roughly the same money as an NTG3/AT4053b combo, one could get a Sanken CS3e which, by the nature of its design, apparently records quite well indoors as well as out. I haven't tested one for myself, and hope to do so before I buy, but is there a reason to have a separate shotgun and hypercardiod if something like the Sanken can do both?

Thanks, Dan

 

[Bfilms]

First choice on a DSLR audio list should be SD mixpre-d ($750), great preamps and functionality.

Yes, Zoom is crappy to record into directly, but if you're using the mixpre-d in front of it, you can turn the zoom right down and get great sound into a cheaper recorder (although I'd recommend Tascam DR 40 or DR 100 over zoom any day).

How much better is the mixpre-d vs the dr-680?

Mixpre d ($750) + tascam dr-40 ($200) = $950.
Tascam DR-680 = $700
Or is it worth it to get the mod DR-680 for $1100?

Also wouldn't an all-in one solution (DR-680) be simpler?

NTG-3 is a great mic, similar to 416, but for indoors you want a hypercardioid, not a shotgun. The AT 4053b ($599) is a great choice.

If your outdoor scenes aren't too dialogue heavy, consider ADR. Most low budget/DSLR productions wouldn't consider it, but with a program like VOCALIGN PRO, you can rerecord the dialogue to 90% the correct timing, and the software will match it to the original audio track without changing pitch. Best money I ever spent on audio.

Good luck

Yeah, I was looking at the 4053b, but I will not be shooting indoors in the near future, so I can get that down the line. Sorry, should have mentioned that.

Interesting idea with ADR, but since most of the shooting will be outdoors, that's too much dialogue to ADR.

Any suggestions on wireless lav mics and system?

 

[Greg Smith]

Any suggestions on wireless lav mics and system?

Your proposed combination of the Rode Lavalier and Sennheiser G3 is solid. I use the same setup (well, actually, two channels of G2's, since I've had them a few years). Using lavalier mics outdoors can present wind noise problems; you don't have the option of using a big furry or blimp as with an off-camera shotgun. But the equipment you suggested should work well if the weather is cooperative.

Since most of your shooting will be outdoors, you do need to budget for decent wind protection gear for that shotgun (and maybe a boom and shock mount).

- Greg

 

[dvxhutch]

How much better is the mixpre-d vs the dr-680?

The mixpre-d has better pramps than the dr680. If you have a budget - which you do - you should always try and get an external preamp. The mixpre-d has a host of additional features that will help your sound recordist greatly.

Mixpre d ($750) + tascam dr-40 ($200) = $950.
Tascam DR-680 = $700
Or is it worth it to get the mod DR-680 for $1100?

Mixpre-d plus dr-40 will get the best results at the best price, IMO. As I said, the pres will sound better than the 680 alone, and having limiters etc will get a better quality sound. The mixpre-d will make any digital recorder sound great - even a Zoom! The modded 680 won't sound any better than the pre-d, or have as many functions.

Also wouldn't an all-in one solution (DR-680) be simpler?

Only in terms of portability, and the mixpre-d is very easy to handle and has lots of attachment points.

The mixer will make the sound recordist's job simpler. And make the sound quality better!

Any suggestions on wireless lav mics and system?

For your budget, the Sennheiser G3 system you mentioned would be the obvious choice. But remember that lavs/radio mics won't sound as rich as the ntg3 or AT4053b. I only use radio mics for guide tracks for ADR, since I don't like how they match up to the richer mics we use.

Your best bet is to go to the store and try them out. If you're going to drop 2.5 grand they'll be happy to let you have a test run.

 

[dvxhutch]

I'm in a similar situation as the OP---Currently I use a MixPre (not the D), the little Sony PCM-M10 recorder, and an NTG1 mic. I'm closing in on a microphone upgrade but am wondering: For roughly the same money as an NTG3/AT4053b combo, one could get a Sanken CS3e which, by the nature of its design, apparently records quite well indoors as well as out. I haven't tested one for myself, and hope to do so before I buy, but is there a reason to have a separate shotgun and hypercardiod if something like the Sanken can do both?

Thanks, Dan

Hey Dan,
The Sanken is a wonderful mic, and the question you have raised is a difficult one. It's still a (short) shotgun mic, so it doesn't have as forgiving a pickup pattern as the At4053b, and you will have problems with reflective surfaces compared to a hyper indoors. You CAN use a shotgun indoors, but it's best if the subjects aren't moving much (eg interviews). If they are, you really should get a hyper. But as I said, the sanken is a beautiful mic.

Having 2 mics is beneficial, eg in case one breaks, or if you need 2 mics for a shot (eg. indoors you could have the hyper at someone who's moving around and the shotgun at someone who's stationary).

It's also worth pointing out that the ntg3 is really a steal at $699; Rode are known for giving good value for the dollar; if the ntg3s were made by another company they'd probably sell them for 1000-1200, which is more in line with their quality. They're really great.

So I don't think I've helped at all with your decision!!! Both options are great and will improve your sound significantly from a ntg1, so you really can't lose. I personally would get the pair.

Test them out, but remember, if you test a shotgun indoors, make sure you do it on a MOVING person, since you will see a lot more difference there from the hyper than you would if they were stationary, where they can sound pretty similar.

Good luck!

 

[Bfilms]

The mixpre-d has better pramps than the dr680. If you have a budget - which you do - you should always try and get an external preamp. The mixpre-d has a host of additional features that will help your sound recordist greatly.



Mixpre-d plus dr-40 will get the best results at the best price, IMO. As I said, the pres will sound better than the 680 alone, and having limiters etc will get a better quality sound. The mixpre-d will make any digital recorder sound great - even a Zoom! The modded 680 won't sound any better than the pre-d, or have as many functions.



Only in terms of portability, and the mixpre-d is very easy to handle and has lots of attachment points.

The mixer will make the sound recordist's job simpler. And make the sound quality better!



For your budget, the Sennheiser G3 system you mentioned would be the obvious choice. But remember that lavs/radio mics won't sound as rich as the ntg3 or AT4053b. I only use radio mics for guide tracks for ADR, since I don't like how they match up to the richer mics we use.

Your best bet is to go to the store and try them out. If you're going to drop 2.5 grand they'll be happy to let you have a test run.

Gotchya, thanks.

One more question, would there be an improvement in recording quality in using a better recorder (like the Sony PD-50 vs Tascam DR-40 vs DR-100 vs Roland R-26) with the Mix Pre?

 

[dvxhutch]

Gotchya, thanks.

One more question, would there be an improvement in recording quality in using a better recorder (like the Sony PD-50 vs Tascam DR-40 vs DR-100 vs Roland R-26) with the Mix Pre?

Minimal to none, if you have a great mixer up front you will make any recorder sound good, because you will be essentially using the mixer's pres, thereby eliminating the analogue section of the cheaper recorder. However if you plan on using the recorder for quick grabs without a mixer (eg for sound beds) the more expensive ones will sound better. I've not used the PD 50 but the Fostex FR 2LE is very nice.

 

[ggrantly]

To the OP, I don't believe you mentioned suspension and wind protection, which is essential. There are lots of choices which you can explore, but given your budget, it is a substantial cost. Good news, if you buy soon you can get the Rode Blimp for free (includes suspension) with your NTG-3 purchase from BH.

The 680 is a nice recorder, but IMHO, the biggest advantage it has over the less expensive recorders is more channels. It has good preamps, but if you use a mixer, it doesn't much matter. If you are only recording one or maybe two channels, the 680 can go naked without a mixer, but the MixPreD is still a great option for all that it will do. It is pretty impossible to ride the gain on more than 1-2 channels without a mixer. IMHO unless you need more channels, I would do a cheapo recorder (two channel) of your choice + MixpreD and spend the rest on the best mics. I use the NTG-3 and 4053b for my corporate work, and they are both very good for the $$. If you do buy a hyper (small condensor) make sure and allow for a Rycote Baby Ball Gag.

Grant

 

[Bfilms]

Yes, I will be getting the NTG-3 from B&H with the blimp.

Which specific cables do I need to connect the NTG-3 to the Mix Pre D and that to the DR-40? And is there anything else I would need?

Thanks again everyone for all the help, this has been a very informative thread.

 

[ggrantly]

Male to female XLR cables for the mic to MixPre. Output on the Mixpre can use either XLR or the 1/8" tape-out port. XLR is best. Don't know what the line-in on the DR40 is. Did I hear that it was XLR in instead of 1/8", that would be good; that was a weakness on the DR-100. However, looking at the DR40, it doesn't seem to have the nice gain controls of the DR-100. If you wanted to use the DR-40 without the MixPre, that would be a pretty big drawback. The DR100 also has dual internal power which is superior.

There was just a hoohah discussion about XLR cables in another thread raising the old "I can hear better audio quality in better cables" conundrum. I can't hear the difference personally. More expensive cables may last longer, or possibly have better interference shielding, but that's it IMHO. I have had good success with the stock Audio-Technica cables, and they use Neutric connectors. No doubt if you want to make your own from spooled cable, that is probably better. Mogami and StarQuad cable is really nice, but costs lots.

Grant

 

[Bfilms]

Male to female XLR cables for the mic to MixPre. Output on the Mixpre can use either XLR or the 1/8" tape-out port. XLR is best. Don't know what the line-in on the DR40 is. Did I hear that it was XLR in instead of 1/8", that would be good; that was a weakness on the DR-100. However, looking at the DR40, it doesn't seem to have the nice gain controls of the DR-100. If you wanted to use the DR-40 without the MixPre, that would be a pretty big drawback. The DR100 also has dual internal power which is superior.

There was just a hoohah discussion about XLR cables in another thread raising the old "I can hear better audio quality in better cables" conundrum. I can't hear the difference personally. More expensive cables may last longer, or possibly have better interference shielding, but that's it IMHO. I have had good success with the stock Audio-Technica cables, and they use Neutric connectors. No doubt if you want to make your own from spooled cable, that is probably better. Mogami and StarQuad cable is really nice, but costs lots.

Grant

Thanks.

Also this might be a stupid question, but how does the ntg3 connect to the boompole (searched for videos but couldn't find any)? Do I need some pistolgrip adapter or the like?

 

[recordingwhiz]

The Blimp that comes with that NTG3 package will act as your shock mount as well as wind protection it can be used sans windscreen and the pistol grip has the mic pole threads at the bottom and that will be your mounting to the boom pole, also the mic comes with its own mic clip, but youre better off using the suspension with the blimp.

Good luck

 

[Bfilms]

The Blimp that comes with that NTG3 package will act as your shock mount as well as wind protection it can be used sans windscreen and the pistol grip has the mic pole threads at the bottom and that will be your mounting to the boom pole, also the mic comes with its own mic clip, but youre better off using the suspension with the blimp.

Good luck

Perfect.

What about connecting the Mix Pre D to the DR-40? Which exact cables/how is this done, seems there's a bunch of different ways to connect to recorders.

 

[Rick R]

Perfect.
What about connecting the Mix Pre D to the DR-40? Which exact cables/how is this done, seems there's a bunch of different ways to connect to recorders.

You may use either the XLR or 1/4" TRS in line level mode since it is hard-switched. So XLR out of your Mix Pre, to the XLR inputs of the DR-40... or.. if you prefer, use the DR-40's 1/4" TRS inputs on the 'combo' inputs. I just built a cable set w/ XLR-f to 'right-angle' 1/4" TRS plugs, which gives the DR40 a lower profile in a bag. Specifically I used a pair of Neutrik NP3RX.
I could have used right-angle XLRs, but I chose the 1/4" plugs, since they can swivel in-place. In either case, make sure the mic/line switch is set to 'Line'. Set the Mixpre calibration tone so 0VU = -20dB on the DR-40. There's no tick mark, on the meter (for -20) but there's an accurate numerical readout.
In my experience, setting the DR40 @ a ref. level of -12dB, hits the DR40's limiters far too often, at least with my 302.
NOTE: Unfortunately, the DR-40's line input can not be trimmed down enough to use a 'full scale' calibration method with a 302.

 

[Bfilms]

You may use either the XLR or 1/4" TRS in line level mode since it is hard-switched. So XLR out of your Mix Pre, to the XLR inputs of the DR-40... or.. if you prefer, use the DR-40's 1/4" TRS inputs on the 'combo' inputs. I just built a cable set w/ XLR-f to 'right-angle' 1/4" TRS plugs, which gives the DR40 a lower profile in a bag. Specifically I used a pair of Neutrik NP3RX.
I could have used right-angle XLRs, but I chose the 1/4" plugs, since they can swivel in-place. In either case, make sure the mic/line switch is set to 'Line'. Set the Mixpre calibration tone so 0VU = -20dB on the DR-40. There's no tick mark, on the meter (for -20) but there's an accurate numerical readout.
In my experience, setting the DR40 @ a ref. level of -12dB, hits the DR40's limiters far too often, at least with my 302.
NOTE: Unfortunately, the DR-40's line input can not be trimmed down enough to use a 'full scale' calibration method with a 302.

Wow...lot of info there, thanks!

This might be an even stupider question...but XLR out from the MixPre and into the DR-40 would be male/female or...?

And what is the difference between the L/R inputs on the DR-40...is that just for stereo recording? If I want to record 2 different mono channels simultaneously, how would that work not just in connecting, but through the MixPre also...

Obviously I don't know much, but I really appreciate all the help!

 

[Bfilms]

Anyone?

 

[Richard Crowley]

XLR out from the MixPre and into the DR-40 would be male/female or...?

It would be whatever mates with the equipment connector. Virtually all pro audio XLR outputs are male, and inputs are female. But don't bet your life on it.

And what is the difference between the L/R inputs on the DR-40...is that just for stereo recording? If I want to record 2 different mono channels simultaneously, how would that work not just in connecting, but through the MixPre also...

Unless you are recording in some compressed format that combines channels (like some forms of MP3), they are simply two channels. If you wish to call then "left" and "right" or "1" and "2" or "Castor" and "Pollux", it makes no difference in recording. If you are actually recording "stereo" then it is handy to call them "left" and "right" to keep track of them.

 

[Bfilms]

It would be whatever mates with the equipment connector. Virtually all pro audio XLR outputs are male, and inputs are female. But don't bet your life on it.



Unless you are recording in some compressed format that combines channels (like some forms of MP3), they are simply two channels. If you wish to call then "left" and "right" or "1" and "2" or "Castor" and "Pollux", it makes no difference in recording. If you are actually recording "stereo" then it is handy to call them "left" and "right" to keep track of them.

Thanks!