2.35:1 in Vegas

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Dan_Lahav

Well-known member
There are aspect ratio presets in vegas for 16:9, 1.85:1, etc, but no preset for 2.35:1 etc. How would I go about creating a preset for this letterbox crop on vegas 6? What is the aspect ratio of 2:35:1? Is it 720x360? BTW my footage is natively anamorphic from Super16mm film. Thanks,
-Dan
 
I don't even know that Vegas has a 1.85:1 ratio. From what I see, there is only 4:3, 16:9 (which is VERY close to 1.85.1), and 2.21:1 (again VERY close to the Cinema Scope 2.35:1 you're looking for).

First, I've only seen that 2.21:1 listed as an option when I'm rendering out in MPEG2 for DVD. It could be other places, but I've not seen it in anything other than MPEG(2). The problem I've had with it though, is that when I render out to that it actually doesn't crop my footage down from top to bottom, but instead extends the frame out further on the sides (left to right). So I now have what should be Cinema Scope with black bars on the side, instead of wider top & bottom black bars.

My suggestion to you would be this for a pre-set: Set up a VEG file that has a top/bottom crop built into it (matts for top & bottom allowing enough window/video to show through at the ratio you want), that you can just drop a video into your predesinated empty track then rerender back out so it will have the ratio you want. When I do this, I just render my entire project out into an uncompressed AVI, then bring it back into my template VEG for Cinema Scope rendering. Yeah, it's another step, but when I do this I get the cleanest results.

I've also got a VEG template set up so that I can do something similar for clients. I've got it all set up with a timecode on one track, client information on another, project info, date of working draft, etc. When I've got a draft for them to view, I throw it in, do a quick rerender to Quicktime or Windows Media, and it looks very pro. Plus the time code gives them exact points they can make notes of for potential changes, etc.

Hope this helps a little.
 
Just had another thought, which I might use myself. Go into project properties, and you'll notice that when you choose widescreen vs. standard DV, the only thing that changes is pixel aspect ratio. For 4:3 it's 0.9091, and for Widescreen (16:9) it's 1.2121

Someone just needs to do the calculations to figure out what Cinema Scope is. It may seem easy, but there's actually a few calculations that most people don't take into account. I remember SOMETHING about this a few months back, and Barry Green had given a calculation that was relating to this. I've not had much luck with thread searches, so maybe someone can find a thread with this calculation? If so, then we just need to put the aspect ratio into that section of the properties, then save under a new template name.

I'd make sure it's set to what Vegas wants to render to though, which is the 2.21:1 ratio not 2.35:1 ratio ... just to make sure there's no errors.
 
THINK I FOUND IT!!!

When I was testing a couple of renders out to AVI, I saw a pixel aspect ratio of 1.457 listed. I tested it, and it seemed to work okay. More importantly, I applied that same ratio into the properties section, and then clicked on my clip/event in the pan/crop window ... then simply clicked match aspect ratio. Sure looks Cinema Scope to me. I also test rendered this aspect ratio (with it set like that in properties, then clip matching aspect ratio) and it rendered BEAUTIFULLY in MPEG2 with that 2.21:1 setting. No more black bars on the sides!

YIPPEE! Thanks for asking this Q, or I wouldn't have been prompted to mess around & figure something out.

So, the moral: Go into your properties, change the Pixel Aspect Ratio to 1.457, then save it under the template setting of Cinema Scope, 2.35:1 (close but not quite), or whatever.

When rendering out to AVI, make sure you choose the same pixel aspect ratio of 1.457 (must be done manually until you save a template for this as well), or for MPEG2 manually change it to 2.21:1 (until you save a new template).

There, now I THINK I've helped ... at least hope so.
 
wow thanks Envision! I think you may have overcomplicated my question a tad...LoL. But you do have some good info there, so I appreciate it! I guess my question was phrased akwardly, but I was actually wondering what to crop my anamorphic footage at to give it a 2.35 aspect ratio. I read somewhere that it was 720x360 but I wanted to double check with you guys.
 
720x306

And if you reset the project properties to the same, you can get rid of the letterboxing. (Good for web-out)

Dan
 
720x306 would work if the video were square pixels, but it isn't.

If your footage is anamorphic, and you're intending to display it on a 16x9 TV, then 720x360 is the right size.

If your footage was not anamorphic, and you wanted to show 2.35 on a 4:3 TV, you'd have to crop it down to 720x272.
 
So...what are the "real" people using? I can play a video on my tv, computer, whatever...aspect ratios all over the place, and they still play correctly.

Dan
 
These are some crops I made for myself a while ago, maybe they'll come in handy for someone. They should work fine in Vegas - just use the appropriate (4x3 or 16x9) depending on your project properties. The trick to figuring out cropping regardless of the screen dimensions or aspect is to take the the funky pixel aspect out of the process - or at least make a consistent one. Also, at least with DV, the vertical pixel res never changes, so that makes calculating the horizontal res that much simpler.

.gif format, transparent, 1.85 and 2.35 for both 4x3 and 16x9

http://www.twodogfilms.com/crops.html
 
Yeah, I wrote a book for no reason ... I should have just corrected the original entry instead of adding another 1,000 words. Live & learn.

So here's my question back to you Dan Lahav. What are you wanting to show the video on? Web or final output on DVD? If it's final output on DVD, then I think that pixel aspect ratio in the property menu & then render out in MPEG2 is your best answer for a NEAR 2.35:1 ratio.

However, if you're talking quicktime, media player, etc., then yeah the 720x360 or other is the way to adjust for rendering out.

I don't think the mattes are the best approach, because when you render out on MPEG2 the actual video file is still in 4:3 format, not a true 16:9 etc for widescreen ... it's just added black bars to hide what's underneath.
 
Barry_Green said:
If your footage is anamorphic, and you're intending to display it on a 16x9 TV, then 720x360 is the right size.

If your footage was not anamorphic, and you wanted to show 2.35 on a 4:3 TV, you'd have to crop it down to 720x272.
Click to expand...

Barry, I didn't follow that last part, but when ever I've rendered out through Vegas for widescreen, I don't mess with the video size (always leave it at 720x480), I just change the aspect ratio in the drop down box. It's always worked perfectly.
 
Remember.. if your going below 16:9 and plan on TV /computer release, your 2:35 ratio doesnt need to be perfect, since its gonna be a crop.
 
Jarred Land said:
Remember.. if your going below 16:9 and plan on TV /computer release, your 2:35 ratio doesnt need to be perfect, since its gonna be a crop.
Click to expand...

Agreed, and loved Jubal28's comment as well. I'm just tickled pink I finally figured away to do the Cinema Scope style without adding some sort of mask for the crop.
 
Here's a quick-and-dirty way to get (near) 2.35:1 crop presets.

For a non-widescreen project, take this grab and crop out the black bars:

cap0146sq.png


Save the preset.

For a widescreen project, do the same with this grab:

cap0257lj.jpg


It probably won't be perfect. It will, however, be close enough.
 
I posted some templates on pg 1 that'll work also.

The math is pretty simple for anyone wanting to know the exact #s.

4x3 = 720x480
16x9 = 864x480 (I use 864 because it's evenly divisble by 16 (good for mpeg encoding); 880 looks incorrectly wide)

In your graphics editor of choice, make a new image of 235 (X) by 100 (Y). Now, resample that up to (for 4x3) 720 wide or (for 16x9) 864 wide. Whatever your vertical frame size is, put some guides down so you know where the original 2.35x1 frame is. Now, just resize the image (either 4x3 or 16x9) to 480. Process the image to get the bars and *bam* instant crops.

Adapt that to whatever specific frame you're looking for - 185x100, 221x100, 277x100 / 300x100 for your really funky Cinerama aspects... These will give you valid 4x3 or 16x9 files for encoding to DVD.

If you're looking for something for a computer or other purpose, do the same thing to get the appropriate dimensions but don't resize up to 480. The original vertical # is what you want (then sent a 1.0 pixel aspect).
 
2.35:1 is the hardest ratio to pull off correctly in Vegas. Patricks numbers are very accurate. I was on another forum sometime ago and they released numbers for using in vegas and they are close to Patricks numbers. Using those numbers, and using the suggested pixel ratio by other members will insure a close look to 2.35:1.

However, if you send your film to a film festival, and your native chipset on your camera is 4:3 make sure you mark your entry as 4:3 2.35:1 so they can properly show your project. If they try to blow it up as 2.35:1 the image will be stretched and look very grainy and out of focus.

I was at the AFI recently during the 48 hour film project, and I watched 3 films that were incorrectly framed. I didn't understand what it was until I contacted AMC about screening my project in October. I spoke to an engineer and he explained it to me based on each camera type used.

If you shoot in native 4:3 (no 16:9 Adapter lens) and later mask it to 2.35:1, and want to screen your project you have to tell the projectionist to set the screen to 4:3 so it will project with the black bars. This is the only way to properly project the pseudo 2.35:1 cinemascope.

If you shoot on a 16:9 camera, and hard matte (or crop) to 2.35:1, the projectionist will set the screen to 1.85:1 and you have smaller black bars. As he explained it more the way i understand it is that your need to have the camera set for cinemascope in order to properly record and project 2.35:1. I don't know of any prosumer cams that have a cinemascope function.

Now, if the final project is shot and rendered as WS 1.85:1 it can be projected properly in 1.85:1, but Getting the proper cinemascope takes much more than just masking a frame.

I like most of you prefer 2.35:1, but having done some checking it just isn't a plausible format for prosumer cams like the DVX100.

I did my project in the homemade 2.35:1, but because of the mix of 16:9 shot footage and 4:3 footage (GL1 vs DVX100) it is very hard to correctly frame the film. I know when I do have it screened I am going to bring multiple discs so i can get a preview check before the film finally plays.

Good job on the numbers Patrick, the boxes look good too and will help those trying to achieve one of the best aspect ratio to be used in cinema.
 
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