1st act climax - opinions needed

U

USLatin

Panamaniac
I often doubt myself completely insane. That's when my wife smacks me tenderly and my feet get planted back on planet earth. Till she gets home late today I though I'd ask the same from random people I don't know. :beer:

I am concerned with my Supernatural Thriller's 1st Act's climax...

"Something must happen to your hero... ...that will transform the original desire into a specific, visible goal with a clearly defined end point. This is the scene where your story concept is defined... ...visible finish line the audience is rooting for your hero to achieve by the end of the film."

from .pdf "Story Structure" (link?)

...well mine is a bit different and that is what worries me.

In my story the Hero "thinks" she knows what her goal is. This smaller yet honorable goal of hers does get established. However, right after it is established, the audience is introduced to an additional piece of information that she is not aware of. I believe this would technically be part of my 1st act's climax.

While the Hero's original goal drives her though her story, the audience is now also aware that she is exposing herself to a great danger by traveling to place where our supernatural evil Antagonist roams. So it worries me that my Hero doesn't have a strong enough goal, even if the audience knows they will have to survive the exposure to the Antagonist.

In the 1st act I begin dropping pieces to a puzzle, which will tie in the Antagonist to the Hero in a way. It worries me that this tie-in happens late in the 3rd act. While the pieces are there early on, it is hard for the audience to make any sense of them till it might be too late in the story. So... I guess my worry might be that I might have lost the interest of the crime-solving part of the audience by the time I start revealing the connection and twists I planted. Then... I guess it will be up to the execution. Are my charters interesting enough? Does the story move along at a nice pace? Do the performances entertain, draw you in? Is the cinematography helping by having an arc of it's own? Is there enough production value... so on so forth. Correct?

I am not even sure if my question is strong enough, or clearly defined. LOL! But if anyone has something to say please do. I would love to talk and learn about structure.
 
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I think with supernatural horror/thrillers the visible goal is not so clear, or is different than what we as a writer might think it is, or is mixed as a' solve the mystery and also survive' goal. It is my favorite genre to write. Take a protagonist (individual or group)-- e.g. a family/group moves into a haunted house/dormitory (Amityville Horror, The Messengers, 13 Ghosts, Asylum, etc) and the act one turning point is classically the realization that the place is haunted, so that the visible goal to me seems to be twofold-- solve the mystery of the supernatural incidents and also survive the escalating ordeal that builds during the story. Anybody else care to chime in? Am I correct in thinking the visible end goal for such supernatural horror stories seems to be twofold (solve the mystery, survive the ordeal)?

'Survive the supernatural ordeal' by the end of the story could perhaps be the visible goal, which by its nature also involves solving the supernatural mystery and associated incidents. The action-oriented goal (survive supernatural dangers) becomes more apparent near the climax of the story (act III), whereas in act II is is more of solving the mystery and surviving psychological terrors that precede the more physical dangers in act III leading to the climax and resolution.
randall
 
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Randall_Oelerich said:
I think with supernatural horror/thrillers the visible goal is not so clear, or is different than what we as a writer might think it is, or is mixed as a' solve the mystery and also survive' goal. It is my favorite genre to write. Take a protagonist (individual or group)-- e.g. a family/group moves into a haunted house/dormitory (Amityville Horror, The Messengers, 13 Ghosts, Asylum, etc) and the act one turning point is classically the realization that the place is haunted, so that the visible goal to me seems to be twofold-- solve the mystery of the supernatural incidents and also survive the escalating ordeal that builds during the story. Anybody else care to chime in? Am I correct in thinking the visible end goal for such supernatural horror stories seems to be twofold (solve the mystery, survive the ordeal)?
randall
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I think you are right.

In my script however, and this is what worries me, the Hero(s) don't realize the place they travel to has a roaming evil supernatural Antagonist roaming around in his own quest. Although the audience knows, they themselves are merely exposed to it while minding their own business. It is only half way though the script that they even think they see anything. A few pages later one of them get's "fully exposed" to the Antagonist's powers and not so nice intentions. However only one of the rest of the group sees this happen, and from a distance so great they can't tell what the heck they actually saw. A few pages later, the remaining Heroes finally get face to face with the Antagonist... the progression continues, more poop hits the blades of the fan... it all goes to hell in a hand basket, so on so forth.

So I feel I might be a little late... and I am afraid the build up might be too sudden if we don't succeed at establishing the suspense from the little tidbits we see from the Antagonist.

We do start with a punch, we see that "punch" clearly at the climax of the 1st, there is one of those kills you don't get to see when a random person meets face to face with the Antagonist and we cut away...

I am not sure I know what I am expecting or asking.
 
The Goal/Desire is often: escape/survive, win/defeat, discover, retrieve, revenge, etc., it needs to be a powerful motivator capable of increasing in intensity over time; & maybe worth dying for.

For me the change from ACT I to ACT II is where the hero's life goes out of balance. The hero's world comes unwound. The rest fo the story is about returning to equalibrium, and that return will be the ride of your hero's life as it gets worse before it gets better.

Your opposition coming to light in the 3rd ACT could be troublesome as you stated. There needs to be something there much earlier: opposition surrogates, friendly opposition, something! Multipe opponents will strengthen your story and add dimension by exposing the differing values of these multiple opponents that contrast with the hero's values. Stories at their deepest foundational core are about the values of life. They are often a lesson in morality. [morality in this sense means, about how live successfully, rather than destruction. In other words, life=good, while evil= death, each with their attending values]

What if: you introduced a false opponent in the 1st ACT. I don't know your story so this may not apply, but a false opponent could greatly intensify the hero's challenge. If the false Opposition is something that stems from the hero's weak/flawed character it would make sense to be there (something the hero invented because of her flaw and brought into her life) In fact this engagement would be a total waste of time, but the hero must discover this and overcome it to face the Main Opponent and find the actual truth thereby reaching her goal......... just thought I'd toss that out there as an altenative.

You need defenders of evil who try to protect the evil from the hero. Protection could be merely preventing the hero from going to where evil resides.
 
I recently reviewed 15 movies from the Neo-Horror genre, and I will say that, Randall, you nailed it--IMO. The dramatic/central question raised at the ACT 1 climax in each was related to survival and/or uncovering a mystery.
10s says, "For me the change from ACT I to ACT II is where the hero's life goes out of balance. The hero's world comes unwound. The rest fo the story is about returning to equalibrium, and that return will be the ride of your hero's life as it gets worse before it gets better."
​
Exactly. ACT 2 takes place in the Extraordinary World, where the hero undergoes trial after escalating trial. It's your job to beat the shi* out of him over and over again in progressively greater assualts until he's near death, figuratively or literally.
 
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10s said:
The Goal/Desire is often: escape/survive, win/defeat, discover, retrieve, revenge, etc., it needs to be a powerful motivator capable of increasing in intensity over time; & maybe worth dying for.

For me the change from ACT I to ACT II is where the hero's life goes out of balance. The hero's world comes unwound. The rest fo the story is about returning to equalibrium, and that return will be the ride of your hero's life as it gets worse before it gets better.

Your opposition coming to light in the 3rd ACT could be troublesome as you stated. There needs to be something there much earlier: opposition surrogates, friendly opposition, something! Multipe opponents will strengthen your story and add dimension by exposing the differing values of these multiple opponents that contrast with the hero's values. Stories at their deepest foundational core are about the values of life. They are often a lesson in morality. [morality in this sense means, about how live successfully, rather than destruction. In other words, life=good, while evil= death, each with their attending values]

What if: you introduced a false opponent in the 1st ACT. I don't know your story so this may not apply, but a false opponent could greatly intensify the hero's challenge. If the false Opposition is something that stems from the hero's weak/flawed character it would make sense to be there (something the hero invented because of her flaw and brought into her life) In fact this engagement would be a total waste of time, but the hero must discover this and overcome it to face the Main Opponent and find the actual truth thereby reaching her goal......... just thought I'd toss that out there as an altenative.

You need defenders of evil who try to protect the evil from the hero. Protection could be merely preventing the hero from going to where evil resides.
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Well there is a "fake opponent" of sorts. The goal that she defines in the first half of the climax of the 1st act is to face her trauma by traveling to the place were her father was last seen. This turns out to also be the place where the Antagonist roams. It does sound very much like you described it, a total waste of time when compared to facing a supernatural evil Antagonist. She does later discover a tie between the Antagonist and her father half way though the 3rd Act.

Perhaps what worries me is that I don't feel there is enough of a struggle to overcome her fears... though there are several moments dedicated only for that purpose, and though most of the rest of the 2nd act this is at least present in a strong underlying way while we experience other situations dealing with the rest of the group. I tried to establish all of the five Heroes as much as possible... so that we would care for all of them as they become "exposed to the Antagonist".

Maybe the issue is that the rest of the Heroes don't have their own "fake opponents". There is however one of them that is co-starring, and happens to be the love interest with the female lead. He is too shy or "lacking in balls" to do something about it... there is tension there, for sure. The remaining three have lesser motivations... 3. Have fun with his friends, try to get laid when they go out; 4. Try to have fun although she didn't want to go there, offer support to her best friend; 5. Blow off steam from taking too many classes. However #3 does get himself implicated and creates additional turmoil and what not regarding the love interest between the co-stars when it keeps coming up that he has a carnal interest in the leading female. There is a big of a scuffle between him and the leading male because of it.
 
This is sort-of confusing without knowing what the actual story is about.

As of right now, you're pretty much asking if you're dancing away from tried-and-true structure and you are. From what you're describing there's no danger at all to the characters, only what the audience knows.

So it's confusing, your question.
 
kylekmd said:
I recently reviewed 15 movies from the Neo-Horror genre, and I will say that, Randall, you nailed it--IMO. The dramatic/central question raised at the ACT 1 climax in each was related to survival and/or uncovering a mystery.
10s says, "For me the change from ACT I to ACT II is where the hero's life goes out of balance. The hero's world comes unwound. The rest fo the story is about returning to equalibrium, and that return will be the ride of your hero's life as it gets worse before it gets better."
​
Exactly. ACT 2 takes place in the Extraordinary World, where the hero undergoes trial after escalating trial. It's your job to beat the shi* out of him over and over again in progressively greater assualts until he's near death, figuratively or literally.
Click to expand...

My worries seem to stem from sharing this idea, and from my 2nd act being much more relaxing for the group. They are merely going through their own real-life problems and situations. The lead does however try to deal with serious emotional baggage, which may make it a successful drama...? I always felt it was a cross-over. Half real half supernatural. We do open with the supernatural aspect in the first pages however.

Our log line is: "Traumatized by the death of her father, a young woman travels with friends to the frozen lakes where he was last seen. Once there they discover a Norse curse that has been killing those around them".
 
Kholi said:
This is sort-of confusing without knowing what the actual story is about.

As of right now, you're pretty much asking if you're dancing away from tried-and-true structure and you are. From what you're describing there's no danger at all to the characters, only what the audience knows.

So it's confusing, your question.
Click to expand...

I completely agree. I do however feel that I am benefiting from the discussion. I wish I could just share the screenplay but at this point I can't.
 
I the problem may be that I have categorized the script as a Supernatural Thriller when in my heart it always felt like it was not, at least not completely.

I had to chose a category to be able to answer that question when it came up, and I don't think I coud say that it is a drama that turns into a supernatural thriller, or half and half. I always wanted to be able to market the film as such in hopes to benefit from the relative ease to find funding and so on and I love the genre. However the story spends about half of the pages of the second act in this way that supernatural thrillers don't seem to. I did however put a lot of effort in making absolutely sure the marketing won't be hollow by calling it a Supernatural Thriller. I feel confident that the thriller and supernatural aspects are both satisfied so as to give the audience what they payed for.

I guess I wanted to tell a story that felt real, with several characters we could get to know and relate to before their lives got thrown into supernatural situations. I felt that if I accomplished that the audience would hopefully feel what happened later in a more visceral way.
 
USLatin said:
Our log line is: "Traumatized by the death of her father, a young woman travels with friends to the frozen lakes where he was last seen. Once there they discover a Norse curse that has been killing those around them".
Click to expand...


My 2 cents:

OK, the log line helps me a bit. Here are some things to kick around.

  1. I suggest you think of your story as having one hero, the rest are there to provide dimensionality of values and interaction for the hero, beside this they can be helpful by becoming victims and opponents to the hero.
  2. It appears that much of the opposition comes from the Wound inside the Hero. She is damaged from her loss (backstory). This wound must somehow cause psychological problems for her and as a result she hurt others. In the end, because of the immense cathartic experience, she heals herself of this affliction and this ends her immoral hurting of others. This needs to physicalized so we can plainly see it.
  3. You might play with the idea that the Nordic curse has the power to travel through spiritual bloodlines. Only a victim's relatives can be touched by its power, unless you happen to be within it's vincinity. Therefore she is haunted by this unknown source that invades her mind and soul (dream sequences of pretty things turning into vial maggots and really sick stuff, etc). Her friends are untouched and relatively safe, but this causes her to be taunted as putting on some sort of a show, craziness, something! Let's also say she is extra sensitive to this evil curse from a distance because of her powerful spirit for pure appreciation for life; this is the exact opposite of evil and it's something evil cannot tolerate. Evil must control, inhibit and destroying all joy, growth, light, feelings and ultimately life. This is where you can exploit the clash of values the story should ultimately be about.
  4. The group can, and maybe they should experience, some supernatural event that they later debate but they ultimately dismiss as some wierd thing. Slowly it infects them and they come unwound in slight but deadly ways; like when a mind altering poison affects someone, it can be slow at first and then accelerate until insanity overcomes them completely. This could complicate your ACTII and provide all sorts of interesting drama while they fight amongst themsleves and then wake up/make up only to repeat again until the whole thing escalates to a much higher level
  5. Build the wonderful warm friendship of the group in the beginning. Have them in a paradasical state, except for the hero's wound; something they avoid mentioning, though it's there.
anywise....it's some food for thought.
 
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USLatin said:
In my script however, and this is what worries me, the Hero(s) don't realize the place they travel to has a roaming evil supernatural Antagonist roaming around in his own quest. Although the audience knows, they themselves are merely exposed to it while minding their own business...
Click to expand...

But that is the very definition of suspense! In suspense, the audience typically knows more than the protagonist, the audience is in superior position, we know the ticking bomb is under the table but the protagonist does not. We chew our nails, pile in handfuls of popcorn as we fear for the protagonist. (e.g. Silence of the Lambs where Clarice feels about in the dark where Buffalo Bill watches her with night vision goggles, etc)

Somewhat related, in a thriller the audience discovers events and the ticking bomb right along with the protagonist (e.g. North by Northwest, Cary Grant).
 
Randall_Oelerich said:
But that is the very definition of suspense! In suspense, the audience typically knows more than the protagonist, the audience is in superior position, we know the ticking bomb is under the table but the protagonist does not. We chew our nails, pile in handfuls of popcorn as we fear for the protagonist. (e.g. Silence of the Lambs where Clarice feels about in the dark where Buffalo Bill watches her with night vision goggles, etc)

Somewhat related, in a thriller the audience discovers events and the ticking bomb right along with the protagonist (e.g. North by Northwest, Cary Grant).
Click to expand...

Great example of Suspense!
 
Randall_Oelerich said:
But that is the very definition of suspense! In suspense, the audience typically knows more than the protagonist, the audience is in superior position, we know the ticking bomb is under the table but the protagonist does not. We chew our nails, pile in handfuls of popcorn as we fear for the protagonist. (e.g. Silence of the Lambs where Clarice feels about in the dark where Buffalo Bill watches her with night vision goggles, etc)

Somewhat related, in a thriller the audience discovers events and the ticking bomb right along with the protagonist (e.g. North by Northwest, Cary Grant).
Click to expand...


You forgot the sucking down of a super big drink and then needing to go the the restroom just when it's all coming together, talk about suspense ;)
 
10s said:
My 2 cents:

OK, the log line helps me a bit. Here are some things to kick around.

  1. I suggest you think of your story as having one hero, the rest are there to provide dimensionality of values and interaction for the hero, beside this they can be helpful by becoming victims and opponents to the hero.
  2. It appears that much of the opposition comes from the Wound inside the Hero. She is damaged from her loss (backstory). This wound must somehow cause psychological problems for her and as a result she hurt others. In the end, because of the immense cathartic experience, she heals herself of this affliction and this ends her immoral hurting of others. This needs to physicalized so we can plainly see it.
  3. You might play with the idea that the Nordic curse has the power to travel through spiritual bloodlines. Only a victim's relatives can be touched by its power, unless you happen to be within it's vincinity. Therefore she is haunted by this unknown source that invades her mind and soul (dream sequences of pretty things turning into vial maggots and really sick stuff, etc). Her friends are untouched and relatively safe, but this causes her to be taunted as putting on some sort of a show, craziness, something! Let's also say she is extra sensitive to this evil curse from a distance because of her powerful spirit for pure appreciation for life; this is the exact opposite of evil and it's something evil cannot tolerate. Evil must control, inhibit and destroying all joy, growth, light, feelings and ultimately life. This is where you can exploit the clash of values the story should ultimately be about.
  4. The group can, and maybe they should experience, some supernatural event that they later debate but they ultimately dismiss as some wierd thing. Slowly it infects them and they come unwound in slight but deadly ways; like when a maind altering poison affects someone, it can be slow at first and then accelerate until insanity overcomes them completely. This could complicate your ACTII and provide all sorts of interesting drama while they fight amongst themsleves and then wake up/make up only to repeat again until the whole thing escalates to a much higher level
  5. Build the wonderful warm friendship of the group in the beginning. Have them in a paradasical state, except for the hero's wound; something they avoid mentioning, though it's there.
anywise....it's some food for thought.
Click to expand...

Hey 10, thank you for your ideas. It is defenitely a very different movie than what you envisioned, mainly because there is hardly any gore in it. But I found your post very helpful:

  1. "the rest are there to provide dimensionality of values" that is some heavy ****. :) I am going to give it some thought and try to psychologically dissect her with this in mind.
  2. She did hurt her family, mother and sister, when her father died and she moved away weeks after when accepting a scholarship. This early move, her escaping from the pain, is also the reason why she remains traumatized so long after his death/disappearance. It is also the reason why she comes back. She realizes she needs to go say goodbye to him and face her grief. She has a argument with her mother and sister where some of those feelings of regret surface. She feels guilty about leaving. She doesn't however associate her friends with the pain, since she didn't see them in the few weeks she was still home after her father's death. They alsa offer support, and thus she does not hurt them when she is suffering most. However, maybe that is something I could change! Perhaps she has one or two weak moments when she lashes out to the wrong person. I don't have enough of that in there. A moment of human weakness... her flaw. I wrote her as a soft and caring human being, which I like, but even the best can lash out, then regret, apologize. :thumbup: I think I might make use of this. I feel I coud raise her stakes a bit more and this could be what I was looking for.
  3. I have hiw well developed already. His motivation is to find a physical object in order to keep it from anyone who might try to use it to kill him with it, the only object that could do that. He a malefic human made even more evil by an aspect of the curse which he cast upon himself to achieve immortality. He had to put himself though a solitary-confinement type of situation which is what made him even more crazy. This is not a gory movie at all, but it does have a psychological terrorism aspect to it where he really enjoys what he does to them.
  4. There is a brief discussion in the 1st act, after the character introductions and just before the climax, where they discuss the possibility of something going on in the area. It is barely touched on and merely points out that people are aware of something going on... people are disappearing, too many are dieing in one area.
  5. Yup, definitely there.
I think point #2 will help me raise the stakes a bit more. I think that might be what I was looking for. I felt the stakes were not high enough for her. If she lashes out, even if just a little, if I manifested her pain... making it plain to see for the audience... good stuff. Especially if she is so soft and sweet the rest of the time... I may amp up the Mother-Sister-Lead argument a bit more, and have her get upset at one of the friends, the one who always sticks his foot in his mouth.
 
Randall_Oelerich said:
But that is the very definition of suspense! In suspense, the audience typically knows more than the protagonist, the audience is in superior position, we know the ticking bomb is under the table but the protagonist does not. We chew our nails, pile in handfuls of popcorn as we fear for the protagonist. (e.g. Silence of the Lambs where Clarice feels about in the dark where Buffalo Bill watches her with night vision goggles, etc)

Somewhat related, in a thriller the audience discovers events and the ticking bomb right along with the protagonist (e.g. North by Northwest, Cary Grant).
Click to expand...

Yea... I wanted to call it a Suspense myself several times... can I call it a "Winter Spring Break Supernatural Suspense Thriller Drama"? :D

I pray I can deliver on the suspense... cause I am really hoping for some of that nail biting to happen. I wouldn't try to compare my work to "Silence of the Lams" but I could die happy if someone else did after they watched it.
 
I wouldn't be concerned. I cover a bunch of scripts each week. Not a reader per se, but things in development and giving notes on those scripts.

If it works for your story, then it will work in the script. Common script structure means nothing taken out of context. People can shove three act structure down your mouth all day, but that doesn't mean you can't drift from it.

At the end of the day, it is a guideline. If you are really wondering, send it out to get covered - or just send it to a few friends and have them read it and tell you their gut reaction on the transition or the current arc.

A log line and a brief description really don't help to say "yes this works" or "no, that sucks". Write how you feel your story would best be told. And then get opinions on it. If it works, awesome. If it doesn't - someone will tell you.
 
Mattykins said:
I wouldn't be concerned. I cover a bunch of scripts each week. Not a reader per se, but things in development and giving notes on those scripts.

If it works for your story, then it will work in the script. Common script structure means nothing taken out of context. People can shove three act structure down your mouth all day, but that doesn't mean you can't drift from it.

At the end of the day, it is a guideline. If you are really wondering, send it out to get covered - or just send it to a few friends and have them read it and tell you their gut reaction on the transition or the current arc.

A log line and a brief description really don't help to say "yes this works" or "no, that sucks". Write how you feel your story would best be told. And then get opinions on it. If it works, awesome. If it doesn't - someone will tell you.
Click to expand...

Indeed. Thanks. I have had several people read it at various stages already. I mostly got good feedback, especially since a major re-write I did around September. In the beginning though it did feel like two halfs stuck together. I'll continue to have as many people read it as possible.

Is your sig something from Adam Savage or did he quote that from someone else?
 
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