16GB P2's...
- Thread starter Goonie
- Start date
Ernest_Acosta
Well-known member
Goonie I heard Oct of this year.
Zack Birlew
Veteran
I'm not too thrilled with the lack of P2 alternatives, but I'm always thrilled with P2 advancements, honestly, I think P2 has a big future ahead of it. Don't give up on P2 for the Cineporter quite yet because I too have heard about higher capacities due by the end of the year.
And, as we all know with technology, when something better comes out, whatever was before it will go down in price.
And, as we all know with technology, when something better comes out, whatever was before it will go down in price.
dregenthal
Veteran
Goonie said:
If you think about it for a minute . . .
Panasonic does not manufacture the chips.
The chip manufacturers are the ones in contol of any intro/deadline.
(and they are probably just as anxious to supply them as you are to hearld their appearance in the marketplace by complaining about what they cost when they do release).
Panasonic has had the empty containers, waiting to be filled with the new chips, essentially, for years.
Ryan Patrick O'Hara
Veteran
Well the factor (I think is causing the delay) is the apparent high quality of the chip. You say the japanese have 64gig flash moduals, but they are probably not the quality standard of p2 cards. I do agree however that it is panasonic's fault for the delay and not keeping with THIER timetable. I do not remember specifics but I believe every couple of months a new p2 size was to be released. By now we should have at LEAST the 16gig cards.
Anyhow despite the chip makers, the buck stops at Panasonics head. I am not mad or disappointed at panasonic, but it is their responsibility in the end. It's not about whose fault it is, but about responsibility.
Anyhow despite the chip makers, the buck stops at Panasonics head. I am not mad or disappointed at panasonic, but it is their responsibility in the end. It's not about whose fault it is, but about responsibility.
You should also note the relative demand for SD type memory/storage has gone up tremendously since the inception of the P2 card. Phones, mp3 players and such are putting some heavy demands on supply. I am sure that Panasonic could put out 16GB cards right now but they would have to priced at such a premium as to make the release not profitable for Panasonic. That said, we should see the P2's come down some with some of the memory manufacturer's increased capacity coming online in the third and fourth qtrs this year.
alexdias
Well-known member
Yes, yes and yes.
All these factors might have interfere with the release of higher capacity P2 cards. But that's what usually happens with any successful technology.
Panasonic, until now, is not responding to the demand and their own projected schedule, and the delay is problematic.
As a producer you can't wait for technology or demand to catch up with you, you make your choice with the most practical available solutions at the time.
I've heard many stories of companies wanting to go with P2 for projects but choosing otherwise due to the lack of availability and capacity. I’ve also heard stories about how great P2 performed in other projects.
I’m not badmouthing the technology, I’m just commenting on real life situations.
The game is still pretty open and if on the next few months Panasonic catch up...
All these factors might have interfere with the release of higher capacity P2 cards. But that's what usually happens with any successful technology.
Panasonic, until now, is not responding to the demand and their own projected schedule, and the delay is problematic.
As a producer you can't wait for technology or demand to catch up with you, you make your choice with the most practical available solutions at the time.
I've heard many stories of companies wanting to go with P2 for projects but choosing otherwise due to the lack of availability and capacity. I’ve also heard stories about how great P2 performed in other projects.
I’m not badmouthing the technology, I’m just commenting on real life situations.
The game is still pretty open and if on the next few months Panasonic catch up...
Barry_Green
Moderator
Guys, come on. Do you think Panasonic somehow benefits by artificially restricting the capacities? Do you think that they enjoy when people bring up limited recording times as the #1 objection to someone adopting the P2 workflow?
Obviously they will produce the larger capacity cards the day they can. If they could put out a 128gb card today, they'd have the capability to have 10 HOURS of footage on-board, in-camera. Who'd be whining about short recording times then? The tape guys, that's who. Why wouldn't Panasonic want to do that today, if they could? And the answer is, they would if they could.
Ryan Patrick O'Hara
Veteran
I am sure they (panasonic) would Barry, but it doesn't make up for the fact they jumped the gun on their p2 release timetable.
Like I said, despite reason or who's fault, it falls on panasonic's head. The P2 manufacturing plan could have probably been better handled. The original Panasonic time table seems to support that fact, for Panasonic believed it was possible (at the time).
If the P2 manufacturing was handled the best it could have been, and we still ended up with an inaccurate timetable, then either Panasonic screwed up the release estimates or P2 technology was overestimated at release time and not quite ready for higher capacity cards.
Like I said earlier, and Barry just verified, the P2 has a very demanding standard for which only the top 2% of chips may be used. P2 cards are top-notch and high end quality. Panasonic would probably kill to have these cards be released. The fact is they messed up somewhere in the calculations or supply contracts, because they are having problems with keeping up with their own projected timetable. But never fear the 16+ P2 cards will be here soon enough. Until then there are a plethora of solutions to easily overcome. I.E. Firestore 100, Cineporter (coming soon?), straight to computer, hot swapping, and so on.
Like I said, despite reason or who's fault, it falls on panasonic's head. The P2 manufacturing plan could have probably been better handled. The original Panasonic time table seems to support that fact, for Panasonic believed it was possible (at the time).
If the P2 manufacturing was handled the best it could have been, and we still ended up with an inaccurate timetable, then either Panasonic screwed up the release estimates or P2 technology was overestimated at release time and not quite ready for higher capacity cards.
Like I said earlier, and Barry just verified, the P2 has a very demanding standard for which only the top 2% of chips may be used. P2 cards are top-notch and high end quality. Panasonic would probably kill to have these cards be released. The fact is they messed up somewhere in the calculations or supply contracts, because they are having problems with keeping up with their own projected timetable. But never fear the 16+ P2 cards will be here soon enough. Until then there are a plethora of solutions to easily overcome. I.E. Firestore 100, Cineporter (coming soon?), straight to computer, hot swapping, and so on.
dregenthal
Veteran
Okay, well Panasonic incorrectly predicted the evolution of the technology (and manufacturings ability to produce it . . . probably had a bad board in their crystal ball), bad Panasonic, bad bad bad Panasonic!
so what? This is a pretty stale discussion already, i.e., two 4gig cards give you 8 minutes at 1080/24pn, two 8's will do 16 minutes (if nobody wants to swap cards). 720p/24pn will provide roughly two and a half more times that. Yadda, yadda, yadda, I don't see the problem?
I feel for the wedding videographer or documentarian that doesn't have anyone to help him/her swap cards (and can't work out the logistics of doing it themselves). I'm on a doc now and having no difficulty--but that's me. If you want a tapeless solution "TODAY" there are a couple of options available to you, and this is a situation that is only going to improve.
so what? This is a pretty stale discussion already, i.e., two 4gig cards give you 8 minutes at 1080/24pn, two 8's will do 16 minutes (if nobody wants to swap cards). 720p/24pn will provide roughly two and a half more times that. Yadda, yadda, yadda, I don't see the problem?
I feel for the wedding videographer or documentarian that doesn't have anyone to help him/her swap cards (and can't work out the logistics of doing it themselves). I'm on a doc now and having no difficulty--but that's me. If you want a tapeless solution "TODAY" there are a couple of options available to you, and this is a situation that is only going to improve.
alexdias
Well-known member
I really didn't want to create the impression of an unsatisfied whinnying costumer.
I’m highly excited about P2 and simply disappointed by its market evolution.
It’s understandable the challenges of predicting development and demand for new products and I don’t believe Panasonic is manipulating costumers embracing the technology in such a early phase.
I was just venting a bit ;-)
I’m highly excited about P2 and simply disappointed by its market evolution.
It’s understandable the challenges of predicting development and demand for new products and I don’t believe Panasonic is manipulating costumers embracing the technology in such a early phase.
I was just venting a bit ;-)
Panasonic would be crazy to put out a Higher capacity P2 card today (or anytime soon). They only cut their own foot by doing so. They make MASSIVE profit on these cards with really no competition. Putting out another card lowers the price of the current card(s). I wouldn't expect to see another card until 1st quarter next year.
We'd all love to see another card but from a business point of view unless someone else makes a card (which is what we all should want) they don't need to rush.
We'd all love to see another card but from a business point of view unless someone else makes a card (which is what we all should want) they don't need to rush.
Ryan Patrick O'Hara
Veteran
I would disagree carlone. I would think they would want to make the P2 format as affordable now as ever. The point is to not make a killing off of the p2 cards but ensure the future of p2.
Panasonic would want to lower p2 prices and time release (if they could manage it) due to trying to win the market. I view the HVX as needing a much different marketing strategy than any of panasonics previous cameras.
All cameras in the past have relied on almost universal means of recording. Panasonic was against Canon, JVC, and Sony but they ALL used Mini-DV (or other tape based media for the higher models). Back then the workflow was all the same. Marketing was aimed to sell the camera. With the HVX, panasonic has taken the initiative to sell a WORKFLOW. Not only is the camera having to compete as usual with other brands, but along comes a whole new workflow. P2 is not compatible in other cameras as the mini-dv tapes were.
Having said this, I would think that Panasonic would not want to "make massive profit". They would want to make p2 cards as affordable as possible. Doing this would get many people to jump on the p2 band wagon. P2 is a very wonderful technology but is also at risk if it does not catch on.
Panasonic needs a successful launch of P2 to ensure their place/position in the market. Right now, making P2 expensive for profit sake would only restrict the number of people switching to the p2 format. In the long run, the more people Panasonic can get to switch to P2 would be better than taking massive profit right away and having the format die early. I think panasonic knows this and I would doubt they are deliberately withholding.
Once P2 grows into a very large working format, more cameras will adopt the technology and eventually Panasonic will earn thier big profits and ensure a future with the promise of more.
Panasonic would want to lower p2 prices and time release (if they could manage it) due to trying to win the market. I view the HVX as needing a much different marketing strategy than any of panasonics previous cameras.
All cameras in the past have relied on almost universal means of recording. Panasonic was against Canon, JVC, and Sony but they ALL used Mini-DV (or other tape based media for the higher models). Back then the workflow was all the same. Marketing was aimed to sell the camera. With the HVX, panasonic has taken the initiative to sell a WORKFLOW. Not only is the camera having to compete as usual with other brands, but along comes a whole new workflow. P2 is not compatible in other cameras as the mini-dv tapes were.
Having said this, I would think that Panasonic would not want to "make massive profit". They would want to make p2 cards as affordable as possible. Doing this would get many people to jump on the p2 band wagon. P2 is a very wonderful technology but is also at risk if it does not catch on.
Panasonic needs a successful launch of P2 to ensure their place/position in the market. Right now, making P2 expensive for profit sake would only restrict the number of people switching to the p2 format. In the long run, the more people Panasonic can get to switch to P2 would be better than taking massive profit right away and having the format die early. I think panasonic knows this and I would doubt they are deliberately withholding.
Once P2 grows into a very large working format, more cameras will adopt the technology and eventually Panasonic will earn thier big profits and ensure a future with the promise of more.
DavidBeier
Veteran
Barry_Green said:
I agree for the most part but I'm rather frustrated at their decision not to include a P2 drive with the HDX900. If that camera doesn't use P2s then less people are using P2s. Logically more cameras supporting the format means the price drops faster and perhaps other companies will start making the cards at a cheaper price. By not supporting it with the HDX, they end up hurting HVX users.
jonnyh1968
Well-known member
Is there a P2 historic timeline somewhere? Maybe we can then predict the 16gb card and/or current card price drops.
dregenthal
Veteran
I understand delivering the product at an attractive price point had to top the list (otherwise fewer people might have bought it).
While the "bean counters" and marketing types may (still) take issue with this, I think now, as I did when the camera was released, that Panasonic made a mistake in not packaging the HVX-200 with at least one P2 card at roll out. Anyone remember how the HVX-200 was positioned on the Panasonic website until just prior to intro? . . . (the "packages").
Think about it: There are still some people out there who own this camera that do not own a single P2 card. Some are still waiting for the P2's to drop in price (which, of course, they will, again). Others waited for the Focus Enhancements device but passed on it and are now waiting for the CinePorter.
This, I would guess, represents a small percentage of the total ownership yet does nothing to promote Panasonic's P2. I'm familiar with the responses, "my business does not require HD at the present time" etc., but none of these folks have the capabilities that the rest of us bought the thing for in the first place.
Okay, when 4 gig cards were $1400 that might have made sense. And while I'm not suggesting the price should go up $650 either (or whatever the going rate of a 4gig card is today), but I am suggesting they might want to re-think their long term plan by doing something to stimulate their own P2 market.
The only thing that's going to get someone really excited about the HVX-200 and it's variable frame rates, HD, or the different formats (other than to read about them here, or in Barry's book) is to, somehow, get a card into their hands at the same time they receive the camera.
While the "bean counters" and marketing types may (still) take issue with this, I think now, as I did when the camera was released, that Panasonic made a mistake in not packaging the HVX-200 with at least one P2 card at roll out. Anyone remember how the HVX-200 was positioned on the Panasonic website until just prior to intro? . . . (the "packages").
Think about it: There are still some people out there who own this camera that do not own a single P2 card. Some are still waiting for the P2's to drop in price (which, of course, they will, again). Others waited for the Focus Enhancements device but passed on it and are now waiting for the CinePorter.
This, I would guess, represents a small percentage of the total ownership yet does nothing to promote Panasonic's P2. I'm familiar with the responses, "my business does not require HD at the present time" etc., but none of these folks have the capabilities that the rest of us bought the thing for in the first place.
Okay, when 4 gig cards were $1400 that might have made sense. And while I'm not suggesting the price should go up $650 either (or whatever the going rate of a 4gig card is today), but I am suggesting they might want to re-think their long term plan by doing something to stimulate their own P2 market.
The only thing that's going to get someone really excited about the HVX-200 and it's variable frame rates, HD, or the different formats (other than to read about them here, or in Barry's book) is to, somehow, get a card into their hands at the same time they receive the camera.
Barry_Green
Moderator
They've said that the 16gb card will be out this year. And that they expect that it will probably debut at about the price that the 8gb was introduced at, and about the same price that the 4gb card was introduced at (both appeared at around $2000).
The 4gb card has fallen in price by about 75% since it was first introduced, and the 8gb card has fallen in price by about 45% since it was introduced six months ago.
The 4gb card has fallen in price by about 75% since it was first introduced, and the 8gb card has fallen in price by about 45% since it was introduced six months ago.