1440 x 1080 project render for HD - Question

[BennyMonday]

I have a project that is currently at 1440 x 1080, 23.976 fps in Vegas 7e.
I am looking to render the video to a hard drive so a friend can burn onto a Blu Ray disc.

The original footage is 1080 24f from a XH-A1 that was brought into Vegas using NeoHD.

I'd like to get the best quality possible, I'm familiar with rendering it out to SD but haven't had the opportunity to do HD as of yet.

Can someone provide details for this HD render?

Also, I've read about h.264 codec in here before but I can't find that codec in Vegas ... am I missing something? I see h.263 but that's it.

Thanks!

 

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

>I am looking to render the video to a hard drive so a friend can burn onto a Blu Ray disc.

Then you export using the Sony AVC file format, and then you select the appropriate BluRay template from that format. To find that screen that has these formats/templates in, select FILE or PROJECT and then RENDER AS.

 

[JohnnyRoy]

The original footage is 1080 24f from a XH-A1 that was brought into Vegas using NeoHD. I'd like to get the best quality possible, I'm familiar with rendering it out to SD but haven't had the opportunity to do HD as of yet.

If you want the best quality possible then you want to choose the render format that is the closest to the original footage. Since the XH-A1 shoots HDV you want to output HDV and not AVCHD which is more compressed and lower quality.

Can someone provide details for this HD render?

1. Choose File | Render As...
2. Save as Type: MainConcept MPEG-2
3. Template: Blu-ray 1440x1080-24p, 25 Mbps video stream
4. Give it a name and press Save
5. Choose File | Render As...
6. Save as type: Dolby Digital AC-2 Pro
7. Template: Stereo DVD
8. Give it the same name with .ac3 extension and press Save

This will render with the same quality as your original footage. You will have two files, one video stream and one audio stream ready to use in a Blu-ray authoring application.

Also, I've read about h.264 codec in here before but I can't find that codec in Vegas ... am I missing something? I see h.263 but that's it.

There are two H.264 codecs in Vegas. Use either MainConcept AVC/AAC or Sony AVC. Use the MainConceopt AVC for iPod and other web video. Use the Sony AVC for PSP or creating AVCHD Blu-ray.

~jr

 

[BennyMonday]

Thanks JR!
I'll get those files to my buddy for the Blu Ray disc burning.
I have another issue .....
To get the best regular DVD version, just use the regular MPEG Main Concept settings? I've been trying that and my DVD's are looking a little "jaggy" in the opening scene (lots of metallic surfaces). The only thing I am doing differently is in Architect ... I'm setting the fps to 24 instead of the default 29.97, and I'm using the 720x480 Widescreen option. This is producing a ! warning that it will need to compress the file. I don't get that as it shouldn't need to be recompressed, right?
I'm thinking this is just something stupid .... I'm only trying to get the best looking DVD version.
Thanks,
Benny

 

[PerroneFord]

Benny, I hate to say this, but JohnnyRoy is wrong here. First, rendering back out to HDV is going to toss away as much information as the camera did in the first place. It's quite lossy. Second AVCHD is more compressed than HDV, he's right, but it's a superior compression which is why it's used for BluRay and why mpeg2 is generally no longer used.

You have two choices

1. Give your buddy your files in a lossless manner and let HIM prepare them for BluRay, or two, give him BluRay ready files. If you want to give him BluRay ready files, you need to encode either mpeg4, or VC-1 (Windows Media Professional). Either one will give BEAUTIFUL images, and I can give you access to some gorgeous examples of either. If you want to give your buddy the files to let him prepare them, you need to find a lossless, or nearly lossless way to encode. That can be Uncompressed (HUGE FILES), HuffYUV, Lagarith, Quicktime PNG, Quicktime (Jpeg2000 - lossy but good), Quicktime (DNxHD - Lossy but excellent), or other similar codec. This will minimize loss and give your buddy the best quality for him to work with.

Recompressing to HDV will simply toss away a bunch more information and I would not recommend it, nor do I know any professional who would.

As to your other problem:

Changing the frame-rate of the movie will introduce all KINDS of issues. This is not something to be taken lightly. EVERY frame of the movie will have to be recalculated which is why you are getting recompression warnings.

Can you post a screen-grab of your Mainconcept settings? Also, how long is the movie you are trying to put on the DVD?

 

[BennyMonday]

Here are the settings for the MPEG2 render I am doing .....

My orig project is 1440x1080x32 23.976p Pix Ratio 1.3333 HDV 10180
Best/Gaussian/Blend Fields
(Note: on the Ruler tab under Project Properties it lists SMPTE Prop 29.97 fps Video) does this mean anything??

Movie will be a total of around 22mins.

 

[JohnnyRoy]

Benny, I hate to say this, but JohnnyRoy is wrong here. First, rendering back out to HDV is going to toss away as much information as the camera did in the first place. It's quite lossy.

Here is why I say this: HDV is what his camera shoots and Vegas will smart-render back to HDV which means ZERO loss in quality from camera to Blu-ray! Rendering to AVCHD is a guaranteed recompression of every frame which will be lossy. I'm not sure why you think 25Mbps HDV is "quite lossy" but I own both HDV and AVCHD cameras and HDV has better quality than AVCHD. Now some of that may be due to the fact that most AVCHD cameras are consumer and don't have quality glass in front, so comparing the quality of my $5,000 Z1U to my $500 CX12 seems silly but it is what it is.

Second AVCHD is more compressed than HDV, he's right, but it's a superior compression which is why it's used for BluRay and why mpeg2 is generally no longer used.

I don't see that happening. Sony Pictures Digital, Disney, and all the major studios are using MPEG2 on Blu-ray for their commercial Blu-ray discs. AVCHD is a consumer format at bitrates of 16MBps. The primary format being used for BluRay delivery is MPEG2 not AVCHD. Go look at a few commercial Blu-ray discs and see what Hollywood is using. I don't know if this is changing but there is nothing wrong with 25Mbps MPEG2 quality.

Now if you start using AVCHD at the same bitrate as MPEG2, AVCHD becomes the superior format because, as you pointed out, it's compression is better and has less macroblocking. But 16Mbps AVCHD compared to 25MBpa MPEG2 (which is what Blu-ray allows) is about the same quality.

I stand by my recommendation. Render HDV to HDV and get the advantage of Vegas smart-render and have a lossless transfer for those parts of the video that are not otherwise processed and excellent quality for those that are.

BTW, when I shoot with my AVCHD camera I render AVCHD to Blu-ray. Both discs have about the same quality.

~jr

 

[JohnnyRoy]

The only thing I am doing differently is in Architect ... I'm setting the fps to 24 instead of the default 29.97, and I'm using the 720x480 Widescreen option. This is producing a ! warning that it will need to compress the file. I don't get that as it shouldn't need to be recompressed, right?

It's recompressing because you removed pulldown and it wants to put it back so it must recompress to do that. Use the DVD Architect 24p NTSC Widescreen video stream template that's in Vegas without modification and DVD Architect will not re-compress.

~jr

 

[PerroneFord]

Here is why I say this: HDV is what his camera shoots and Vegas will smart-render back to HDV which means ZERO loss in quality from camera to Blu-ray! Rendering to AVCHD is a guaranteed recompression of every frame which will be lossy. I'm not sure why you think 25Mbps HDV is "quite lossy" but I own both HDV and AVCHD cameras and HDV has better quality than AVCHD. Now some of that may be due to the fact that most AVCHD cameras are consumer and don't have quality glass in front, so comparing the quality of my $5,000 Z1U to my $500 CX12 seems silly but it is what it is.

He changed the framerate of the video. Which means every frame must be recalculated. So it should force a recompression.

I don't know what you're getting out of your cameras, but HDV and AVCHD at the same bitrate aren't even close in the quality. Perhaps you are only familiar with AVCHD in low bitrates.

I don't see that happening. Sony Pictures Digital, Disney, and all the major studios are using MPEG2 on Blu-ray for their commercial Blu-ray discs. AVCHD is a consumer format at bitrates of 16MBps. The primary format being used for BluRay delivery is MPEG2 not AVCHD. Go look at a few commercial Blu-ray discs and see what Hollywood is using. I don't know if this is changing but there is nothing wrong with 25Mbps MPEG2 quality.

No, they USED to use Mpeg2 when they first started shipping. This is no longer the case. Look at any major release in the past year and you will find either VC-1 or mpeg4. Mpeg2 is being phased out. Plenty is wrong with Mpeg2 at 25 mbps. My camera shoots Mpeg2 at 35Mbps ands its quite lossy on high motion. Better than HDV, but Mpeg4 at the same bitrate would be vastly superior.

Now if you start using AVCHD at the same bitrate as MPEG2, AVCHD becomes the superior format because, as you pointed out, it's compression is better and has less macroblocking. But 16Mbps AVCHD compared to 25MBpa MPEG2 (which is what Blu-ray allows) is about the same quality.

This is exactly what I am talking about. BluRay only allows 25Mbps Mpeg2. You are right. But it allows up to 48Mbps Mpeg4 or VC-1. This is why Mpeg2 has fallen out of favor. The quality is leaps and bounds beyond the Mpeg2 offerings.

I stand by my recommendation. Render HDV to HDV and get the advantage of Vegas smart-render and have a lossless transfer for those parts of the video that are not otherwise processed and excellent quality for those that are.

BTW, when I shoot with my AVCHD camera I render AVCHD to Blu-ray. Both discs have about the same quality.

~jr

If Vegas will smart render a frame rate change then I buy what you're saying. But I don't know how it could when every frame has to be recomputed. And your AVCHD camera is not coming anywhere close to th max spec for BluRay. In fact, Unless you are shooting an HMC150, It's not even approaching half the Blu-Ray spec.

 

[JohnnyRoy]

He changed the framerate of the video. Which means every frame must be recalculated. So it should force a recompression.

According to his post, he shot 24F and use NeoHD to convert to 23.976 (removing pulldown). So there was no change in frame rate. He is using 23.976 source footage in a 23.976 project rendering to 23.976. Vegas should be able smart render this.

I don't know what you're getting out of your cameras, but HDV and AVCHD at the same bitrate aren't even close in the quality. Perhaps you are only familiar with AVCHD in low bitrates.

Then you are agreeing with me. ;-) I already said that "at the same bitrate" AVCHD is superior. I was comparing 25Mbps MPEG2 with 16Mbps AVCHD which is about the same quality.

And your AVCHD camera is not coming anywhere close to th max spec for BluRay. In fact, Unless you are shooting an HMC150, It's not even approaching half the Blu-Ray spec.

Agreed. My primary camera is my Sony Z1U. My Sony CX12 AVCHD is just a consumer model to take on vacation. It's a pretty impressive little camera considering what it captures at 16Mbps.

~jr

 

[Efexone]

HDV is lossy. I run into compression artifacts/blocks all the time, especially when shooting at higher shutter speeds. When the amount of image information exceeds 25mbps bandwidth, I get a "compression spike" in the footage. shootin at normal shutter speeds prevents this, but when I push footage to the edge in post, I still see compression artifacts.

http://api.photoshop.com/home_813b6...be-px-assets/b2feae3fe1d346f7a07e0f78f527784d

 

[BennyMonday]

According to his post, he shot 24F and use NeoHD to convert to 23.976 (removing pulldown). So there was no change in frame rate. He is using 23.976 source footage in a 23.976 project rendering to 23.976. Vegas should be able smart render this.

Actually JR, in a couple of the Cannon cameras they shoot in true 24f (no pulldown) which negates the pulldown removal during capture. I had a tough time with this .... in Neo there is a checkbox that has to be checked/unchecked to not remove the pulldown. I had to do a lot of footwork during capture to get a correct answer on this.
Regardless, everything in the process has been at 23.976 ... sorry if there was any confusion Perrone.

One person did suggest that I take the 1440x1080 veg file and drop into a 720x480 24p timeline and render DVD Architect 24p NTSC Widescreen video stream from that. I didn't see the need for that, but mabye I'm wrong.

My render from Vegas is DVD Architect 24p NTSC Widescreen video stream, that's the part I don't get. The only thing I am doing differently than other projects in 24p is I am changing the framerate in Architect to 23.976 from 29.97 (which pops up as the default). This can be the only thing I can think of, yet logically it doesn't make sense to me.

Benny