Finally! CCD specs and DSP released!

[Justyn]

I'd also like to relay a story that my friend told me about a shoot he just did. He does high-end audio and video assist on 35 and HD shoots here in Town. Big ones, like he just did a disney commercial with Antwon Fuqua (sp).. Spike Lee, Adidas.. and all that jazz.

Well he's also the one who took my place in line when the HVX came in and the other day he brought it to a cinealta shoot that he was providing video assist for. He was doing it to let the coordinator see the camera.. and just start to show it off as he aims at being able to rent it out on these cinealta and varicam shoots as a potential B camera.

Well, in his honest assesment, he was shooting some side by side stuff and was blown away at how similar the images look, and quite often he said that he tought his footage looked even better than the Cinealta. He then got the director's attention who came over to check out his footage.. then more than a few times came back to A and B the cameras... With the growing wrath of the DP who owned the Cinealta.. and how after a while the director took his card... then asked where he kept it so he could sneak in and steal it... then after lunch break.. he'd worked his way into shooting on the commercial for the next day with his camera.

Now, I know a lot of commercials want the big form cams on the dolly...and that the cinealta is of course a better camera... but the HVX impresses professionals. My buddy said the director went off to consult with the producer about the possible angles that this small form camera will offer. It's so much of a difference in size and mass... that the shortcomings are clearly overshadowed by what else it can offer.

So, given that I can't understand a whole heaping lot about this camera.. I know that when we had it shooting at a concert the other night.. with the Dell 2405 pumping out it's image... we had a friggin swarm of people over there going nuts over the image.

 

[Justyn]

Has anyone seen what HDnet puts out? I live in Dallas and I would not put much weight into what Mr. Cuban company is putting out as HD material.:violent5:

Not a fan of that creep then? And wha'ts up with his hair and crazy eyes?

 

[Jarred Land]

I......... the HVX impresses professionals......

I like the ring to that Justyn.. it pretty much sums up my experience as well.

Kinda cool story you have though.. what a way to land a gig

 

[Jarred Land]

Has anyone seen what HDnet puts out? I live in Dallas and I would not put much weight into what Mr. Cuban company is putting out as HD material.:violent5:

hes shooting crappy movies up in Canada where i used to live. Wouldnt mind to be in his shoes though.. or at least borrow his credit card for a day.

 

[BobDiaz]

...

3) 540 vertical pixels also means there are only 540 vertical chroma pixels on a 1080p format. That means color is practically 4:2:0 and not 4:2:2. 4:2:2 was supposed to be an advantage over the competition and it's not there. The HVX has exactly the vertical chroma a 1080 HDV camera has. And lower recorded horizontal chroma in NTSC HVX. 640 compared to 720.

Better late than never

Looking in the vertical direction the pixels would be as follows:

Scan line 1, Green Pixel goes for 2 lines down
Scan line 2, Blue and Red Pixels goes for 2 lines down
Scan line 3, Green Pixel goes for 2 lines down
Scan line 4, Blue and Red Pixels goes for 2 lines down
...
Scan line 1079, Green Pixel goes for 2 lines down
Scan line 1080, Blue and Red Pixels goes for 2 lines down
​

While we have 540 green scan lines of pixels, it's easy to forget that we also have 540 red and blue scan lines of pixels OFFSET BY 1/2 a CCD pixel. This means that every scan line of 1080 receives new color information.

Thus, a green screen clip would be OK and 4:2:2, because in the vertical direction there is new color information. There are three cases that can be made here:

(1) Green - Red or Red - Green: New color infromation is found on every scan line.
(2) Green - Blue or Blue - Green: New color information is found on every scan line.
(3) Blue - Red or Red - Blue: New color information is found on EVERY OTHER SCAN LINE.

So, don't use Blue Screen, use Green screen for the full 4:2:2 color.

Bob Diaz

 

[Justyn]

Thanks Jared. I think that it'll help smaller production companies compete in terms of image quality overall. It's also so amazing to be planning a shoot for this summer and I'll have 2 HVX's the entire time... and I can put a big Phat zero on the line for film/tapestock. I already see my friend bitching about having to pay 25 bucks a piece for that HDV tape. That seems like a nice racket again... reminds me of how much I was paying for mini DV back in the day.

Also, one more thing that I have really come to love with the camera is the black and white viewfinder. Being used to shooting with a viewfinder for a while now, I was so happy to first of all see that it's in black and white, and secondly... that it's quite easy to see if you are in focus or not. I'll admit that it was really hard to tell if you are in focus on the LCD.. and that's why my buddy bought the Marshall, but I tell you the viewfinder is awesome.

I think I'll use the LCD for the overall color and to check composition and what not, but I'll close it up when I'm shooting handheld, and when I need to be right on with my focus.

I also think that this news might sway some people off the lists.. so all of you 15 people ahead of me... come on jump ship.. this isn't the cam for you. Get the canon they are giving away a great box of steaks.

Let me be the sucker.. but then again I have slits in my head called eyeballs and I'm GA-GA for the HVX... As well as going mad waiting for it.... Never had so much in savings for so long without spending it.... AGGGGHHHh.

 

[Jarred Land]

ha ha ha ha ha.

Yeah.. 25 bucks a tape for HDV kinda sucks.. but even sucks worse is paying $80 a tape for HDCAM. Those P2 cards really start to look attractive, after, oh, about 8 tapes

 

[dhffhd]

Maybe it's just the gin and tonic talking, but if Panasonic is just using some fancy schmancy computer software to uprez the 540 chip, why can't an average joe like myself shoot on the DVX, and if the finished product strikes a chord and gets some interest, use fancy schmancy computer software, after the fact, to uprez the finished product. In other words, it seems like the choice is to either apply the fancy schmancy computer software to uprez in the camera, or use it farther down the line, when you've determined that you've in fact managed to capture lightening in a bottle. Lousy logic?

 

[izoneguy]

Not a fan of that creep then? And wha'ts up with his hair and crazy eyes?

I guess when you that much money you can groom however you like. Mark is OK just full of himself. Money talks and Bull*hit walks.

 

[izoneguy]

ha ha ha ha ha.

Yeah.. 25 bucks a tape for HDV kinda sucks.. but even sucks worse is paying $80 a tape for HDCAM. Those P2 cards really start to look attractive, after, oh, about 8 tapes

At least Sony keeps reducing the price of HDCAM decks. Pretty cheap now, only $32,000

 

[Jarred Land]

not bad logic dhffhd.. but the big difference as Bob pointed out is that its not just a bayer interpolating pixel lines from nothing as you would if you uprezzed a DVX.. each line gets new information.

 

[izoneguy]

Maybe it's just the gin and tonic talking, but if Panasonic is just using some fancy schmancy computer software to uprez the 540 chip, why can't an average joe like myself shoot on the DVX, and if the finished product strikes a chord and gets some interest, use fancy schmancy computer software, after the fact, to uprez the finished product. In other words, it seems like the choice is to either apply the fancy schmancy computer software to uprez in the camera, or use it farther down the line, when you've determined that you've in fact managed to capture lightening in a bottle. Lousy logic?

DVX limits are the DV tape. I guess you get that Andromedia set-up and shoot on a DVCPRO HD deck.....Wait this new camera called an AG-HVX-200 will be able to record DVCPRO HD on a card, and I heard you can re-use the card over and over again. It cost $650 for a 4 gig card that can record 10 min of 720P DVCPRO 24P. Wow were can I order one??!!:badputer:

 

[jeffyjones]

correct.. The format is the king.. but remember, its a professional codec. No other camera is using a professional codec. HDV sure in the hell isnt, and i hate to admit it DV never was a professional codec either.

You know... that was the deciding factor for me. I'm not planning on doing a ton of for-hire work, but I where I can it will likely be SD material. I've used DVCPRO 50 in the past and I love that I now have access to it.

Great details in the first post.

 

[Jarred Land]

The Andromedia uses basically the same method as the HVX does to uprez the DVX.

 

[Jarred Land]

You know... that was the deciding factor for me. I'm not planning on doing a ton of for-hire work, but I where I can it will likely be SD material. I've used DVCPRO 50 in the past and I love that I now have access to it.

Great details in the first post.

Yes.. its also nice for people in tradition Varicam shoots to be able to use the HVX as B cameras and ingest the same codec, same format at the end of the day.

 

[BobDiaz]

Oh Yes, One More Thing....

Oh Yes, One More Thing....

While there are 540 vertical green pixels, I forgot to add how the scan lines between the vertical green pixels are generated. This holds true for the horizontal direction too. To understand, look at the following ASCII Text "Drawing":

|G1 |X1 |G2 |X2 |G3 |X3 |...
|Y0 |R1 |Y1 |R2 |Y2 |R3 |...
​

When 960 Green pixels are converted to 1920 green pixels, the space between G1 (Green Pixel Number 1) and G2 is calculated as follows: X1 = (G1 + G2) / 2

Likewise, X2 = (G2 + G3) / 2 ....

While this does NOT increase the green detail, it does generate transition pixels. If G1 and G2 = 100% Green, X1 must be 100% Green. IF G2 is 100% Green and G3 is 0% Green, X2 would be 50% Green. This gives us some transistion effect.

Notice that where X1 apperars, R1 (Red Pixel Number 1) appears. On a Greenscreen clip with red or blue on a greenscreen, the new color information appears. In this case, where we see X2, R2 appears with a change in the color information.

While my ASCII Drawing shows it in the horizontal direction, just turn your monitor on its side to see the drawing in the vertical direction. At X2 we have transitional information in the Green and Red color information appearing. This provides the 4:2:2 color changes we need for a good key.


Bob Diaz

 

[Emanuel]

OK Bob!

Can we presume in non-technical terms from those numbers...

LINK1

Back in December, I guessed that the native pixel count was 960x540, BUT in looking over the different parts of the models and images, I'm leaning toward 960x720.

As for the T-Shirt, which is funny, 691,200 pixels isn't exactly correct. Given the offset of the CCDs, it's 691,200 x 2 = 1,382,400 separate pixels.

This is less than Canon's 1,555,200 pixels, BUT the difference isn't that much, only 12.5% more on the Canon. Still, it is more than JVC's 921,600 pixels. All of this may not matter much, when you compare Canon's resolution to JVC's resolution, the pixel count is higher for the Canon, BUT the difference in resolved detail isn't that great.


The bottom line is that all (Sony, Canon, JVC, and yes Panasonic) 1/3" CCD HD cameras do 720 detail very well, but can't pull all the 1080 detail that a 2/3" CCD can. Still, after seeing the 720p from the JVC on the big screen, I feel that the 720 detail limit for 1/3" CCDs is no big deal.



Bob Diaz

LINK2

The key point is that the HVX-200's image is very good.
We can stop there and really that's all one needs to know.

For those who wish to know why...

My personal belief is that the CCDs are 960h x 720v. Remember, this is my best guess and I could be wrong. Assume that the number is correct... 960 x 720 = 691,200 pixels. Think of a pixel as a point of light in the image. The more points of light, the better the detail. There is a limit, but for now we'll ignore that.

Panasonic has 3 CCDs in the camera; one for Red Light, One for Blue Light, and One for Green Light. If all three CCDs were alligned exactly the same, there would be 960 x 720 or 691,200 pixels to receive the light.

BUT Panasonic has offset both the Red and Blue CCDs from the Green CCD. The center of each Red and Blue CCD is located where 4 corners of Green CCDs match. (I know there's a drawing of this, but I can't locate it right now.)

This pixel offset increases the effective number of points (pixels) where we pick up light by a factor of 2. This is why I said 691,200 pixels x 2 = 1,382,400 pixels.

Increasing the number of pixels improves the detail in the image, but this is only good UP TO A POINT. As far as I can tell, on a 1/3" CCD, increasing the number of pixels seems to max out at around 1.1 million. Beyond that, there are only slight gains in detail and major drops in sensitivity, low noise, and dynamic range.

Pixel offset give us the effect of a 1.3 million pixel input with 0.7 million CCDs. So, we are getting the best of both worlds. I'm sorry to drag on with the technical details, so let me put this in non-technical terms:

Panasonic's Pixel Offset = Great Looking Images!!!
​

Bob Diaz

...the confirmed exact numbers are:

960 x 540 = 518400 [x2=] 1036800

Am I wrong?

 

[Jarred Land]

While my ASCII Drawing shows it in the horizontal direction......., just turn your monitor on its side to see the drawing in the vertical direction. .......

Bob Diaz

priceless rogar-BigGrin(DBG)

 

[Neopics]

Oh and one last thing, take a look at the images that the camera produces in green screen, ... if it is 4:2:0, which it is not, how come the green screen work looks so much better.

I agree the greenscreen work looks good, although I have always been puzzled why it doesn't look as good as it should if it were a true 4:2:2 capture. This is something I commented about on DVinfo:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?p=411303#post411303

There has always been a tell-tale vertical blockiness to the keys that shouldn't be there if colour is sampled separately on every line. This made me suspicious about the quality of the product and honesty from Panasonic. However, now that the cat is out of the bag regarding the CCD specs, everything makes sense now -- it explains what I was seeing, and actually makes me less critical of Panasonic.

 

[Neil Rowe]

could depend your keyer and settings. it works out beautiful for me here.

anyhow, its nice to know whats under the hood, but i cant reallly say that i really care now that i know. this cam is really the best in its class hands down, and the imagery is just amazing. hats off to panny.