To HD or not to HD… that is the question?

Robert Eldon

Robert Eldon

Well-known member
Hello everyone! First time post, long time lurker. My son is getting into film-making (attending classes) and we are ready to invest in a 3 chip camera. I’ve been following this forum for a long time and appreciate all of the information and sharing that occurs here.

We have been looking at purchasing the DVX100B or the HVX200. I’ve seen a lot of compelling reasons to get an HVX200 but…

I’ve noticed that most of the members here have already worked with the DVX100 and are “upgrading” to the HVX200. I wonder how many members are “upgrading” and how many are buying this type of camera for the first time?

Also, we have considered the investment in additional equipment (i.e. case, tripod, matte box, etc.) that we don’t already have.

We have seen both cameras at EVS (they’re really great people there) and without question, the HVX200 is extraordinary! But I haven’t been able to justify the additional $2500.00, especially for a ‘first time’ camera.

I followed the post from CineAlta and was wondering if he made a decision yet (DVX or HVX)?

Any input on this subject would be greatly appreciated.
 
It's a tough question, and probably has most to do with your financial situation. There's certainly no reason NOT to get the HVX, since it is so similar to the DVX but with tons of extra features. However, one can still do excellent work with the DVX, and certainly can get through school with it.... and any additional features necessary can probably be obtained when necessary through the school or fellow students. You need to judge the seriousness of your son's effort, and your budget constraints, etc. But you really won't go wrong with either choice!
 
I don't see a reason in getting an HVX for somebodie's first camera. Unless money is simply not an issue. Also, to use the HD features on the HVX you will need a very powerful editing machine, so you need to figure that in w/ the costs also.

I'd suggest going w/ the DVX and learning it. It's not as expensive etc, but it's still a great cam and more than enough to start out on. I guess the real issue boils down to how serious he is, ad how much money you have.
 
I agree with ullanta. It comes down to what you can afford and how serious you think your son is about filmmaking.

The great thing about the HVX200 is that it's HD, so the projects your son works on will still look great in the future. You have to decide if you can afford it and if you can, will your son take good care of it? I would have loved to have a camera like this back in college.

Also, consider what it will cost to edit in HD. DVCPRO HD footage takes up a lot of space. If you have to purchase an edit system for the camera, it will be an even bigger investment (A Good Mac, Final Cut Pro HD, HD Monitor, Video Storage, etc...) Ouch!!!

Editing DV is much cheaper.

Doesn't the school provide equipment?
 
RobertE said:
I followed the post from CineAlta and was wondering if he made a decision yet (DVX or HVX)?
Click to expand...

Yes, I've decided to go with the DVX100B, for the time being. The HVX200 is a fantastic camera, but for the next year or two, I will be working primarily in SD. The HVX200 would be great for SD as well, with native 16x9 chips, DVCPro 50, better lens, 14 bit vs 12 bit electronics (I think) etc. But, for my needs, I just couldn't justify the $3,000 price difference for SD only. I will use that money to perhaps buy a 2nd DVX100B, and jam-sync, for 2-camera shots. Or for accessories and computer upgrade. Also, for DVCPro 50, I would still need to buy P2 cards. So the difference in cost jumps up to at least $5,000 (if you go for the most inexpensive route of Cineporter or Firestore). Also, I wouldn't really benefit from the quick ingestion workflow of P2 cards. Right now, I have more time than money.

More and more I'm finding that content and execution is far more important in learning the craft of successful and quality filmmaking, than what camera you use (at least for my indie film projects).

These guys here are experts and on the cutting-edge of motion-picture technology. I'll let them work the bugs (no doubt not very many) out of the 1st generation HVX200, and switch over when the HVX200A or B hits in a few years. Who knows, by then it may have a high-definition LCD, more P2 slots in place of DV and other features!:)
 
Wise choice, CineAlta. Remember that while the HVX has all the buzz right now, this whole community was built on the DVX and there's been some killer, killer DVX stuff shot. As well as a DVX film being nominated for an Oscar and twice winning "best cinematography" awards at Sundance, so -- yeah. It's a great camera, and you can spend the savings on a lot of other good gear too.
 
RobertE said:
Hello everyone! First time post, long time lurker. My son is getting into film-making (attending classes) and we are ready to invest in a 3 chip camera. (snipped for brevity)

We have seen both cameras at EVS (they’re really great people there) and without question, the HVX200 is extraordinary! But I haven’t been able to justify the additional $2500.00, especially for a ‘first time’ camera.
Click to expand...

Not wishing to swim against the time here (but) . . . My dad bought me a kodak "brownie" camera when I was 12 years old -- that does not seem to fit your scenario, as your son evidently has already made a substantial commitment. Odds are that he will probably be in a better position to guide you than I am but a couple of thoughts . . .

If you are already at a $3500-3999 threshold (DVX v. HVX) you can easily (if I am understanding your question properly) justify the additional $2500 by looking at what you get over and above the DVX in features, ie.

16x9 lens (and 16x9 chips). The anamorphic attachment (alone) for the DVX is going to run you somewhere between $750-950. So your nearly halfway there.
I think it's fair to say that the ability to shoot HD, variable frame rates, and 4-2-2 color space easily justifies those other dollars (IMHO).

You (he) can shoot & edit DV with the HVX just like you can with the DVX. That'd be a marvelous way to have a quality camera and begin learning without having to accumulate all the trappings that seem to go with DVCPRO50 and HD right out of the box. However it would be nice to have the capability of "going there" at the appropriate point without having to purchase another camera (and potentially having to dispose of one).

You'll read/hear quite a bit about having a good script, good blocking, technique, etc., etc. -- all of which is true but, wow, how rewarding as you are learning or when you begin to put it all together to have the right equipment too!

Anyhow . . . I'm an upgrader. I positively loved my DVX100A. It opened my eyes to what is possible and it opened a lot of doors for me. Talk with your son aboout it and I'll bet your decision will become much easier. Either camera will yield outstanding results, if you are wondering, "will I receive an additional $2500 in value by deciding on the HVX? Oh yeah, You Betcha!!!

Best to you both!
 
Slimothy said:
I'd suggest going w/ the DVX and learning it. It's not as expensive etc, but it's still a great cam and more than enough to start out on. I guess the real issue boils down to how serious he is, ad how much money you have.
Click to expand...

I would say that he's pretty serious. He's been working with small production companies (production designer, gaffer, grip) using this type of camera and he's gone about as far as he can go using a single chip Sony!

I started making films in high school (Super 8) and entering film festivals. Don't ask how long ago that was! But the DV world is new to me. I hope it runs in the family.
 
thefilmaddict said:
I would have loved to have a camera like this back in college.

Also, consider what it will cost to edit in HD. DVCPRO HD footage takes up a lot of space. If you have to purchase an edit system for the camera, it will be an even bigger investment (A Good Mac, Final Cut Pro HD, HD Monitor, Video Storage, etc...) Ouch!!!

Editing DV is much cheaper.

Doesn't the school provide equipment?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I would have loved to have DV back in college! And the editing capabilities are incredible!

Very good point regarding the addtional investment. He currently is using Vegas 6.0.

The school does provide equipment, but the availability is very limited and sporadic. He will be attending NYFA in June. They use the DVX100 for DV as far as I know.
 
CineAlta said:
Yes, I've decided to go with the DVX100B, for the time being. The HVX200 is a fantastic camera, but for the next year or two, I will be working primarily in SD. The HVX200 would be great for SD as well, with native 16x9 chips, DVCPro 50, better lens, 14 bit vs 12 bit electronics (I think) etc. But, for my needs, I just couldn't justify the $3,000 price difference for SD only. I will use that money to perhaps buy a 2nd DVX100B, and jam-sync, for 2-camera shots. Or for accessories and computer upgrade. Also, for DVCPro 50, I would still need to buy P2 cards. So the difference in cost jumps up to at least $5,000 (if you go for the most inexpensive route of Cineporter or Firestore). Also, I wouldn't really benefit from the quick ingestion workflow of P2 cards. Right now, I have more time than money.

More and more I'm finding that content and execution is far more important in learning the craft of successful and quality filmmaking, than what camera you use (at least for my indie film projects).

These guys here are experts and on the cutting-edge of motion-picture technology. I'll let them work the bugs (no doubt not very many) out of the 1st generation HVX200, and switch over when the HVX200A or B hits in a few years. Who knows, by then it may have a high-definition LCD, more P2 slots in place of DV and other features!:)
Click to expand...

CineAlta,

Thank you for your reply. I watched your thread with great interest and could tell that you were making an informed decision. That's what I love about this forum, the members and information exchanged is substantive and real world.

I can appreciate when you're saying "More and more I'm finding that content and execution is far more important in learning the craft of successful and quality filmmaking, than what camera you use (at least for my indie film projects)." That is what is most important in the early stages and most members here have already used the DVX as their first stepping stone.
 
If you are looking for a bargin get an DVX used. Ebay or what ever. Then buy lots of gear? Sure but I don't think Matte Boxes are a wise use of funds at this level. Sure it looks cool but it's not needed. I have yet to use one and I have a film in distribution.

Get a good Tripod and some lights. A beanbag and a backpack (cinesaddle ghetto style). Build a dolly and you got all you need.

You will still need an editing solution. Might as well get a Dell 24" monitor to go with it and you are now in HD territory.

Consider this-

The HVX has a big student feature. It's called P2 cards. You shoot lots of experimental stuff and practice lighting composition etc. It's fast and if you mess up just delete the clips. No tapes. No digitizing. No head cloging. No drop outs. Just shoot, shoot shoot shoot. Makes experimenting a joy. Fast feedback. No mess.

Composing shots in 16:9 is good training. The need for more light is good training. The quality of the footage is rewarding. The ability to adjust more in post is refreshing. The added color space and Detail looks great on SD also.

HD also makes you have a better eye for detail as you can't get away with as much in the higher resolution. Might as well start training that eye now rather than later.

And Jr. can rent out his cam or get hired to work on a film as a DP because he has HD and that could pay for the extra cost quickly. He will definitely be more popular if he has the HVX and on the job training is very valuable.

The rule of thumb for me has always been- buy the best you can afford as you will get the longest lifespan out of it. Factor in the cost of replacing the DVX when it's been outgrown as part of the equation. I never heard anyone say- Yeah my camera is nice but I would be happier with less color space and less resolution. I should have gone for the lower level version.

Don't get me wrong the DVX is a great cam and can shoot some impressive stuff but it's days are numbered and the bar is going to be raised for all of us. What was great yesterday may not be good enough tomorrow. HVX should have a good two to three years before it's obsolete.

But be happy that no matter what choice you make it will be a good one. You really can't go wrong in this case.
 
Barry_Green said:
Wise choice, CineAlta. Remember that while the HVX has all the buzz right now, this whole community was built on the DVX and there's been some killer, killer DVX stuff shot. As well as a DVX film being nominated for an Oscar and twice winning "best cinematography" awards at Sundance, so -- yeah. It's a great camera, and you can spend the savings on a lot of other good gear too.
Click to expand...

Barry,

That's what I was thinking, that this community was built on the DVX. It seems like a great stepping stone, but I have also read the threads regarding 'future proofing' your video technology. We will get your book either way (as part of the "other good gear"). Do I understand that you are working on an HVX book similiar to the DVX one?

I really appreciate your 'experienced' contributions to this forum.
 
dregenthal,

Thank you for "swimming against the time here". I really like the way you itemized the benefits of going HVX. I almost wish I could itemize the differences between the DVX and HVX and assign a cost benefit. Hah!

I am considering "having the right equipment too". I'm assuming that a lot of the investment in equipment (in addtion to the camera) can be used with either camera?

Congratulations on your 'upgrader' status.
 
holditnowfilms said:
If you are looking for a bargin get an DVX used. Ebay or what ever. Then buy lots of gear? Sure but I don't think Matte Boxes are a wise use of funds at this level. Sure it looks cool but it's not needed. I have yet to use one and I have a film in distribution.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the insight on the Matte Boxes!

holditnowfilms said:
Get a good Tripod and some lights. A beanbag and a backpack (cinesaddle ghetto style). Build a dolly and you got all you need.
Click to expand...

What's a 'beanbag'? We have sandbags, same thing?

holditnowfilms said:
You will still need an editing solution. Might as well get a Dell 24" monitor to go with it and you are now in HD territory.
Click to expand...

Done.

holditnowfilms said:
Composing shots in 16:9 is good training. The need for more light is good training. The quality of the footage is rewarding. The ability to adjust more in post is refreshing. The added color space and Detail looks great on SD also.
Click to expand...

All very good points. Hard to quantify, but over the course of 1 to 2 years, maybe worth $2500.00 alone?

holditnowfilms said:
HD also makes you have a better eye for detail as you can't get away with as much in the higher resolution. Might as well start training that eye now rather than later.
Click to expand...

True. And I like the idea that going to HD can be 'optional' at first but it would be there when we're ready.

holditnowfilms said:
And Jr. can rent out his cam or get hired to work on a film as a DP because he has HD and that could pay for the extra cost quickly. He will definitely be more popular if he has the HVX and on the job training is very valuable.
Click to expand...

I can't wait for my son to see himself referred to as 'Jr.'! He's taller than I am!

Very good point! I hadn't thought about 'hiring' out as a DP. I have been wondering for a long time if any of the members here (especially the HVX members) have worked together on, say, a 2 camera shoot?

holditnowfilms said:
The rule of thumb for me has always been- buy the best you can afford as you will get the longest lifespan out of it. Factor in the cost of replacing the DVX when it's been outgrown as part of the equation. I never heard anyone say- Yeah my camera is nice but I would be happier with less color space and less resolution. I should have gone for the lower level version.
Click to expand...

What has been the experience of other users 'replacing' their DVX cameras?

holditnowfilms said:
Don't get me wrong the DVX is a great cam and can shoot some impressive stuff but it's days are numbered and the bar is going to be raised for all of us. What was great yesterday may not be good enough tomorrow. HVX should have a good two to three years before it's obsolete.
Click to expand...

I hear ya. CineAlta made a good point about jumping in to the first production run of the HVX. Maybe you guys can get the bugs worked out and by then we'll be ready for the HVX200A or B version?

holditnowfilms said:
But be happy that no matter what choice you make it will be a good one. You really can't go wrong in this case.
Click to expand...

Thank you.
 
Thank you all for your input and insightful information. We put it all into the magic hat and pulled out...
a DVX100B!

We've decided that it's more than enough camera to get things started and we'll still have enough of our budget left over for the "other good gear" as Barry called it.

We're going to EVS tomorrow to "seal the deal".

I'll still be hanging out here, even if the forum gets renamed to www.hvxuser.com!

Cheers!
 
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