24p PAL and NTSC

R

robo3687

Well-known member
First of all I apologise if I am beating a dead horse here but I have a few small questions...

I am in rural Australia and as someone with a burning urge for filmmaking and who is eagerly wanting a dvx100 they are not very easy to come by for me.

There are online stores that sell them for AU$5,500 (US$4,125) and stores on ebay selling them for AU$3,999 (US$2999). I have sourced places in the US to buy them a bit cheaper but thats not my issue...lol...sidetracked...

To me the difference between PAL and NTSC is the frame rate (25 and 30 respectively) and the colour compression (something like 4:2:0 and 4:1:1 I think)

But is this such an issue on the dvx100 when recording in 24p?

Do DV tapes come in PAL and NTSC?

Basically if going straight to an NLE when filmed in 24p does PAL or NTSC matter?

And of course my thinking is a FireStore would over rule any problems with compatibility...

I'll let you guys explain it to me....cos I've rambled enough now :)
 
The "tape" is simply a carrier of information and is identical physically, the only difference is the information that it contains.

By the way, PAL is not 24p its 25p or 50i. NTSC is either 60i or 30p or 24p.

NTSC is a 720 x 480 pixel frame with a PAR (pixel aspect ratio) of either .9 or 1.2 to 1.

PAL is a 720 x 576 pixel frame with a PAR of either 1.067 or 1.422 to 1.

So, are you purchasing a NTSC or PAL DVX?
 
I have a doubt: I believe Pal 24P is achievable if you can put it in a 50hz signal, just like 24P is in a 60 hz signal. Anyone can clarify this?

On another note, I believe the pocess of video is entirely different from the process of film. 50hz or 60hz are problems of video production, and this should not affect film conversion, since film is just a succession of photoframes. What I mean with this is that it should be possible to have 24P in a Pal camera and this would not pose problems for Film conversion. Can someone clarify me on this?
 
Pal is 25p or 50i
NTSC is 60i but the DVX can output 24p, 24pa and 30p

24p is not in a 60hz signal. It's taking images 24 times a second (just like film) and adding filler frames/fields (just like telecine of film to video) to produce 60i output.

You're dealing with video frames just like a film camera deals with film frames. These are discreet measurements in time. You see mto a ssume it's an analog waveform that can be just resampled at any specified time. You can re-sample frames but you won't end up with a clean look nor will it be totally successful reproducing an original capture at 24p.

Film runs at 24 fps.
To go from video -> film ideally is done 1:1 so no resampling is required.
This is 24p to film.
25p (Pal compatible format) can be put to 24fps film but the speed/running time will be off a little. The audio needs to be resampled.
60i to 24fps film requires much resampling and processing. There are many products tah tdo this but once again hte cleanest solution is 24p video to start with.
 
so basically if i only work in 24p and output to either film or dvd it should be fine whether i have a PAL or NTSC camera?

oh and ther are no immediate plans to buy one of these cameras...as much as i would like to.....i've only just left school and have no money...lol......
 
Scottdvx100 said:
Pal is 25p or 50i
NTSC is 60i but the DVX can output 24p, 24pa and 30p

24p is not in a 60hz signal. It's taking images 24 times a second (just like film) and adding filler frames/fields (just like telecine of film to video) to produce 60i output.

.
Click to expand...

So theoretically its possible to put a 24P stream on 50i. I fail to see how this would make the image stutter or provoque any problems, since its still displaying 24P but it in a different stream with fake fields/frames.
 
24p in a 50i stream would be accomplished by something like a 17:1 pulldown scheme -- 17 fields copied 1:1, followed by one duplicate field, etc. Might make for odd motion rendition when having such a consistent stream interrupted three times a second by a duplicate field.
 
SPZ said:
So theoretically its possible to put a 24P stream on 50i. I fail to see how this would make the image stutter or provoque any problems, since its still displaying 24P but it in a different stream with fake fields/frames. It would still be in a Pal compatible 50i stream
Click to expand...


No its no more of a problem than putting 24 on 60i. But unless you are going filmout something that 99,9% of all DVX owners wont do it has no real advantage.

Even if you shot 24p on 50i manage to extract them edit make your movie. If you then have to make it to dvd you have to speed up footage 4%. Of course this isnt that major problem but it is a lot more problem than just shoot 25p to begin with.

If you shoot 25p all you have to do is slow it down 4% as for editing you could cut 25p footage even on windows movie maker.

so there is really no reason to shoot 24p with pal equipment.
 
Barry_Green said:
24p in a 50i stream would be accomplished by something like a 17:1 pulldown scheme -- 17 fields copied 1:1, followed by one duplicate field, etc. Might make for odd motion rendition when having such a consistent stream interrupted three times a second by a duplicate field.
Click to expand...


Shouldnt it be eiser just but 24 frames and one reduntant frame for 24PA mode?

If you want to just extract 24 frames for editing.

For 24p mode it would have no sense at all.
 
Yes that would be easier for us, but would look even jerkier. It'd look like your video dropped a frame every second. That'd look awful. But for purposes of pulldown removal it would be convenient.
 
Barry_Green said:
The PAL camera doesn't have a 24p mode, only 25p.
Click to expand...


really?....cos i noticed the PAL XL2 doesn't either........thats a bit of a disappointment....but i guess 25p is still fairly close...

now its just a question of whether or not i want to outlay the extra money for a dvx or go for something a bit cheaper......cos the 24p was one of my buying points....lol...

oh well...back to the drawing board
 
if you can look at two videos one 24p and one 25p and spot the difference, you're a better man than I. 25p and 24p look so similar.

Get the PAL version and shoot 25p, it'll make awesome PAL DVD's.
 
FiL said:
if you can look at two videos one 24p and one 25p and spot the difference, you're a better man than I. 25p and 24p look so similar.

Get the PAL version and shoot 25p, it'll make awesome PAL DVD's.
Click to expand...

yeh i was just thinking that....lol.....sounds like a good idea....

now all i need to do is save/raise/earn some money
 
FiL said:
if you can look at two videos one 24p and one 25p and spot the difference, you're a better man than I. 25p and 24p look so similar.

Get the PAL version and shoot 25p, it'll make awesome PAL DVD's.
Click to expand...

If you're going for film out, try slowing down audio and hear how good it sounds...Lower speed equals lower pitch...
 
SPZ said:
If you're going for film out, try slowing down audio and hear how good it sounds...Lower speed equals lower pitch...
Click to expand...

Well 98% of my dvd collection have been 4% speed up, and that has never annoyed me.

And how many cinemas does run its movies at exactly 24 fps?
 
MovieSwede said:
No its no more of a problem than putting 24 on 60i. But unless you are going filmout something that 99,9% of all DVX owners wont do it has no real advantage.

Even if you shot 24p on 50i manage to extract them edit make your movie. If you then have to make it to dvd you have to speed up footage 4%. Of course this isnt that major problem but it is a lot more problem than just shoot 25p to begin with.

If you shoot 25p all you have to do is slow it down 4% as for editing you could cut 25p footage even on windows movie maker.

so there is really no reason to shoot 24p with pal equipment.
Click to expand...

Do you aspire to be a filmmaker, Movieswede, or just want to do event coverage, Weddings, or TV stuff? I think not. I believe you, like the majority of the people in this board, wouild like for the possibility of your film to be on the Big Screen, in a Cinema with people there paying to see your masterpiece and clapping to your achievement at the end of your premiere. Well, of course you would like your movie to look as best as possible in that eventual day. That's Why I, for example, would really want 24P in a Pal camera. The films we see on dvd are converted perfectly for PAL - the conversion from 24 to 25 should be no problem. I don't know if in a DVD we are really seing 24P at pal or 25P, maybe so. However, what I know is this:

Panasonic just announced new frame rates for the ntsc model, including 26 fps. If this is possible with all the supposed production "barriers" mentioned, it should very well be possible to do 25fps. The same goes for PAL. If they just added 26fps for NTSC, than it shouldn't be a problem to add 24P. Not doing that is market proteccionism and doing their userbase a disservice. I will get the PAL version, no doubt about it, but I still feel that Panasonic is giving a superior filmmaking product to US users- US gets the best of both worlds for their camera: the best possible film out solution, as well as the best possible Interlaced solution. We, who are paying A LOT MORE for that same product, get a good direct to dvd camera for both TV and fiction. As for film out- Why do you Europeans need film out anyway? Hollywood is where it's at! :(
 
MovieSwede said:
Well 98% of my dvd collection have been 4% speed up, and that has never annoyed me.

And how many cinemas does run its movies at exactly 24 fps?
Click to expand...

Try hearing something 4 percent speed up, vs one 4 percent speed down. The faster pitch seems more exciting (this is also a trick some radio stations do in order to make them sound "better") and the slower pitch, well, sounds slower and less exciting. Just try it in fcp or wathever editor you're using, with a song or dialogue
 
SPZ said:
Do you aspire to be a filmmaker, Movieswede, or just want to do event coverage, Weddings, or TV stuff? I think not. I believe you, like the majority of the people in this board, wouild like for the possibility of your film to be on the Big Screen, in a Cinema with people there paying to see your masterpiece and clapping to your achievement at the end of your premiere. Well, of course you would like your movie to look as best as possible in that eventual day. That's Why I, for example, would really want 24P in a Pal camera. The films we see on dvd are converted perfectly for PAL - the conversion from 24 to 25 should be no problem. I don't know if in a DVD we are really seing 24P at pal or 25P, maybe so. However, what I know is this:

Panasonic just announced new frame rates for the ntsc model, including 26 fps. If this is possible with all the supposed production "barriers" mentioned, it should very well be possible to do 25fps. The same goes for PAL. If they just added 26fps for NTSC, than it shouldn't be a problem to add 24P. Not doing that is market proteccionism and doing their userbase a disservice. I will get the PAL version, no doubt about it, but I still feel that Panasonic is giving a superior filmmaking product to US users- US gets the best of both worlds for their camera: the best possible film out solution, as well as the best possible Interlaced solution. We, who are paying A LOT MORE for your product, get a good direct to dvd camera for both TV and fiction. As for film out- Why do you Europeans need film out anyway? Hollywood is where it's at! :(
Click to expand...

my ambition is to just make movies....as many as i can...regardless of the quality.....its just something i love to do....i want the best equipment to do it with and have only ever had access to loaned low grade stuff.....i have never owned a camera myself..... :(

as for PAL dvd's I have witnessed a few (such as lotr trilogy) that have their framerate at 23.976fps....so i think they do do that where ever possible...
 
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