Death of the Cinema camera (clickbait!)

[scorsesefan]

Small cameras just keep showing up in my daily work. Every time I think I want to just haul out the big guns, I find another reason to roll with something lighter instead.

I just shot a gig this past week on my Canon C50 and was once again reminded how great of a little camera it is.

The job was a pretty heavy ask in my opinion, to capture 2 hosts doing man on the street interviews with just myself running one camera and also handling sound, and a second camera operator getting another camera angle. With that much audio going on I'd prefer to have a sound person 99 times out of 100, but sometimes I just need to take the job and make some money.

4 channels of audio going into the C50:

2 xlr through the handle (shotgun on camera, split to both channels, 1 at a lower level for safety track) for on-camera atmosphere and backup.

2 tracks through the 3.5mm mic input, DJI Mic 2 with 2 transmitters going to independent tracks, so that I could film 2 hosts for man on the street stuff, each with their own stick mic. Also recorded the 32 bit float on the transmitters themselves as backup.

I also put a Zaxcom TRXLA transmitter with a lav on each of the hosts recording to its internal micro SD for the times where they didn't speak into the handheld mic, which was often actually. These were not "professional" hosts.

Shooting 7K, 3:2 open gate in 4:2:2 10 bit Long GOP. Extra height for a vertical 9x16 deliverable and then also outputting a standard 16x9. I need to do some punch-in's on occasion in the edit, so I opted for the extra resolution.

Second camera (C500 II) was just running a shotgun mic on camera.

Timecode to both cameras to help with post-sync. Another example where the C50 really shines with its built-in timecode port.

Who needs an FX5 at this point?

Still waiting on my fx5.

 

[morgan_moore]

Not sure what your issues are. The Sony Monitor and Control app is rock solid with the FX6 and gives you remote control of every single function on your camera. I've used it hundreds and probably thousands of times. And it's not just me. Look at David Morefield and Cranky Cameraman's YouTube channels to see other working professionals using this app. You can use it either wirelessly or via wired USB to your phone or an iPad. It is a little finicky to get set but once you spend the 20 minutes to get it set up and communicating, you will never have to do it again.

(the shoot :car to hero motorbike, on welsh mountain roads, client bbc, SMM car rig operator/head operator)

So I tried and have seen (set by Sony at a show) using it via CAT5 via a router, .. firstly this means a sketchy dongle at both the ipad at the camera end.

The background.. the client specified the FX6 so I 'handed' building the remote control system to them as I’m not a 'sony guy' - I spoke to Sony Basingstoke and invited myself in for a test. No dice.

The setup was done by 'films at 59' who are well known rental house in this locale.

My shoot was for the BBC

All top end stuff

The setup did not fkin work - it was not there or jumping onto WiFi at 3 frames per second.**

My temperament is when I am embarrassed in front of a director* I want to simply stamp on all the kit before throwing it off a cliff.

A rental house and a camera company have one chance with my reputation - im 100% serious.

Maybe usb is the thing.. then why are Sony and Films59 suggesting cat5?

As it happens my best setup at the moment is my canon R6, long USB and non Canon app.

==

My recent south arcade shoot (

)

This was multiple FX3 cameras including one on my jib (you may enjoy the wider shots)

The director told me we would operate by app to have tap to focus.

The wireless app was about 7 frames per second. we swapped to a long hdmi cable in moments. Utter garbage.

Could you set and monitor at static cam with the app? Im sure you could.

S

* we are all strapped into a speeding BMW on a mountain road with the contributor following on a motorbike

** maybe jumping to wifi! the app is not 'pro' with messages like 'switching to wifi'

 

[morgan_moore]

I have a demo coming up with canon. Ill set up some vomit comet rig and see if they can give me picture and control.

Or im just going with trad stuff like Preston an Teradeck

S

 

[DustinSchmidt]

Or im just going with trad stuff like Preston an Teradeck

I understand the frustration. I also think you've kind of nailed the solution though as well.

Some of the situations you've described where you need to either operate a camera (run/stop, zoom/focus, etc.), or, get a reliable video signal from far away to monitor the frame, are really only achieved by high-end tools.

Despite what some of the camera manufacturers might say in regards to their app capabilities, they're not up to the task yet for the jobs you work on.

You need an expensive wireless system to get reliable picture from far away. (teradek, vaxis, etc.) You need an expensive wireless hand unit to handle all of the camera control (Arri, Preston, Cmotion cPro, Teradek CTRL, maaaaybe Tilta Nucleus).

It might be a better option to pitch the more expensive stuff to the clients you work with, or, let them know definitively that if they're not willing to spend the money to do XYZ, then they're not going to be able to do what they want to do?

I know not every company has the budget to rent or work with that stuff on a daily basis, but they also can't expect to get the same results with cheap stuff. If it were me I'd rather be very up front and honest about what's achievable with a budget, than to over-promise and under-deliver?

 

[morgan_moore]

I understand the frustration.

And returning to the thread title 'the death of the cine camera' .. the is the point I am trying to make in my usual roundabout manner.

The fx3 and r6v are excellent little picture boxes. (as is my Zcam)

I only want to spend more on the 'cine camera' if I get what I want like ND/Zoom that can be controlled remotely to a professional standard of reliability.

If both the C400 and the R6V need a Preston zoom motor and a teradek .. fk Ill take the cheap/light camera.

Hell the R6v has better AF, and opengate unlike the C80

Without the cine cameras delivering above the R6v they are dead to me.

 

[morgan_moore]

Canon zoom motor is $1500 and is works on one lens (24-105 2.8)

Tilta Nucleus zoom/focus costs the same and works on 'any' lens so when the client want anamorphic or a Percival lens.. I can provide.

--

The other option Ive considered is the DJI chicken head - but the system seems too closed. My other sough arcade video they shot on Panason HVX for a look (!) - not something I could offer with the chicken head.

 

[rob norton]

@morgan_moore I didn't realise the Ronin 4D has internal NDs...

Are price and lack of zooms the only bottleneck for this system? You can control EVERYTHING via the monitor too?

I'm selling stuff at the moment and it's nice to see it all adding up when you want to buy other stuff or free up funds. Is there a rental option for a bulletproof 4D set up? If you put yourself in the director/DP shoes...surely the 4D package would be quite an easy sell - for all reasons you've listed in this thread.

 

[morgan_moore]

The 4d could be 'the answer' -it really could be a cinema camera killer.

Like DJI killed helicopters, DJI could kill the cine cam. I cannot tell you how much respect I have for Chinese engineering!

1) its costy to me to own
2) I don’t think it would work with a 70-200 (for example)
3) DJI drones.. wont start without having internet/scanning your eyeball/updating firmware.. its all a bit big brother

I’m a service business
4) my movi pro gimbal can fly the directors chosen camera.. FX3, Dvx100, FX6, alexa mini
5) my movi pro gimbal can fly the directors chosen lenses
* not massive zooms, or alexa ST ect.

6) its costy to me

7) uk dealers ,, I find it hard to get demos of stuff - no one wants to demo/sell me anything because Im such an a-hole. The UK is so broke I don’t think the makers can actually be bothered to promote here.

 

[Peter C.]

Maybe I’m being a bit snarky but showing up to a professional upper end job and getting mad at an app not performing without testing it first is on you. The app is useful for non demanding situations like a interview where you’re a solo shooter and need to monitor the camera is recording, the subject is in frame and properly exposed.

 

[morgan_moore]

Maybe I’m being a bit snarky but showing up to a professional upper end job and getting mad at an app not performing without testing it first is on you. The app is useful for non demanding situations like a interview where you’re a solo shooter and need to monitor the camera is recording, the subject is in frame and properly exposed.

You are very welcome to be snarky -we are here to cvhat and learn.

Let me walk you through the timeline.

1) (months earlier) I see cat 5 sony set up at show, chat through the setup with sony techs , leave feeling excited.

2) (months later) Job comes in, I offer my Canon setup which I am well across.

3) Prodco decides to keep continuity by speccing a rental sony - I make it very clear to the prodco that this sony is beyond my scope and they are camera responsible

3a) A few days ahead.. I offer to go to Sony Basingstoke and do a test, it does not come to pass.

4) Thur, speak to 'films at 59' and go through the requirements - much smiling and excitement

5) Friday arrive to films at 59, - set up (by them) is not stable, we try their router, my router, their iPad, my iPad

6) I drive to Wales and make counter-mass setup to balance fx6 and 28-135 on my Movi

7) shoot day. zooming unstable app picture- , basically we shot at 28mm , using my backup HDMI monitor.

Moral ? yes maybe turn it away, or do the best one can after clarifying risks to the client?

--

The 'point' of the thread is that Sony/Canon 'cine' really just dont seem to be up to it support and testing. Hence Ive not bought a cine camera and don’t really expect any help from them!

 

[Peter C.]

You are very welcome to be snarky -we are here to cvhat and learn.

Let me walk you through the timeline.

--

The 'point' of the thread is that Sony/Canon 'cine' really just dont seem to be up to it support and testing. Hence Ive not bought a cine camera and don’t really expect any help from them!

Don't get defensive. The ability to control the camera wirelessly is useful and its not a secret the frame rate isn't good for moving subjects. The tech isn't bad but it isn't the right choice for this application. The professional way to monitor is a direct cable or a high quality wireless transmitter. If the client wants to try new tech out on a job this is what you get.

 

[rob norton]

Don't get defensive. The ability to control the camera wirelessly is useful and its not a secret the frame rate isn't good for moving subjects. The tech isn't bad but it isn't the right choice for this application. The professional way to monitor is a direct cable or a high quality wireless transmitter. If the client wants to try new tech out on a job this is what you get.

I think there's a misunderstanding of Sam's tone. I assume he literally means you can say whatever you like, all comments are welcome, he's not upset. When Sam talks about equipment there's no bias, he's just chasing a unicorn.

Maybe I’m being a bit snarky but showing up to a professional upper end job and getting mad at an app not performing without testing it first is on you. The app is useful for non demanding situations like a interview where you’re a solo shooter and need to monitor the camera is recording, the subject is in frame and properly exposed.

If we didn't ask more of our tools, where would we be?

 

[morgan_moore]

Don't get defensive. The ability to control the camera wirelessly is useful and its not a secret the frame rate isn't good for moving subjects. The tech isn't bad but it isn't the right choice for this application. The professional way to monitor is a direct cable or a high quality wireless transmitter. If the client wants to try new tech out on a job this is what you get.

I’m not defensive - all input is welcome. You are (probably accurately) describing the tech as not fit for my purpose.

Can you point me to any other sources on the internet that describe Cat5 monitor and control as semi functional. (sony or blogger?)

At the London show it looked really good. Im old enough to spot a laggy monitor from a mile off.

I cannot remember the camera used in the London show,, it may have been an FX2 or a 'video camera' (with an actual cat5 port?) )the sony guys told me the fx2 was internally a couple of gens newer than the FX6

 

[morgan_moore]

chasing a unicorn.

This is worth discussion?

How I have seen it..

R6v - £2000

C80 - £4000

FX6 £6000

The more expensive cameras dont have a better picture. But they do have app controllable ND so should work on a jib in a way the R6v doesnt.

To me the only reason to purchase is that function! So if it doesnt work I wont purchase.

It seems to me that SonyCanon are the unicorn chasers and that is why ..

poor people use mirrorlles horror rigs, rich people use alexas?