Need camera advice

Z

zpanama123

Member
Hi,
Hope this is the right forum, not looking for specific camera brand. I'm new, but I'm hoping to tap your experience. I am making a low budget film and want to buy a used camera to get started. Renting would make sense if I had decent experience using cameras, but I don't. So I need some hands-on so I can at least work with DP or camera operator. I'm tentatively looking at 4k, 10-bit 4-2-2. I'm not sure about sensor size (full frame or super 35). I've been studying YouTube videos, articles, and Reddit posts about Panasonic (EVA1, Varicam), Canon (c500, c300, R8) and Sony (ZV-E1 or even E10). Trying to work with $2k or so, several possibles on ebay, etc. Would be very thankful for anyone's input, opinions come from experience, so all good. Thanks, Tom
 
At this point, cameras are so good, it doesn't matter. At least not unless you are doing professional work. If you are buying used, then consider what will sell well when you are ready to move up. Also consider, what is your lens plan? With a $2k camera budget, you can easily spend that or more on a selection of lenses. Accessories will also be a significant expenditure unless the camera you buy comes with a lot of extras.

Many people develop some sort of fandom with a particular brand.

There are so many camera strategies (mirrorless, cinema, stripped down box, etc) that it's difficult to advise that any one brand or type of camera is the way to go.

4k, 10 bit, 4-2-2 is pretty generic these days and offers you many options. I don't think any one opinion is worth listening to. Someone here will put up a really good argument for one camera or the other and that will sway you in that direction.

I will say that if auto-focus is in your plans (which it shouldn't for film making), then Panasonic should be at the bottom of your list.
After that, well, .... let the discussion begin.
 
In a way, a bigger camera requires a stronger foothold on the industry to people than a smaller camera as they're maybe taken more seriously. Smaller cameras help out with more of a guerilla style of filmmaking compared to big cameras. My advice to you is ask yourself how you're going to film it then pick a camera. The most guerilla in terms of filmmaking is Sony mirrorless cameras; I'd go with that with a small no rail rig.
 
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Hello.

Try and follow this trail. It might work for you.

Films are usually made from sequences. wide, CU, ECU.

Wide might be 16mm on S35 or 24mm on FF.

Now there are a billion 24mm fullframe options and not so many 16mm S35 options.

So go fullframe. .. big film makers can access wide fast S35 cinelenses.. we poor folk cant. Only 1pointSomething is fast in S35 world.

Auto focus.. well it could save your bacon. Pulling focus is challenging and requires a solid rig decent monitor and another world of pain.
A green box sitting on your subjwect is awesome - dont let anyone lie to you that it isnt.

You can make a story from AF shots*

So you can make a film with a 24-70 2.8. (WIDE, CU ECU one lens)

Get a 3 stop solid ND on amazon for $15.

A full frame mirrorles body to fit your lens , canon or sony - in body stabilised is very good

This body must have an EVF. so no FX3, 30 or black tragic (wich dont have AF so are rubbish)

No evf? you cant compose and hold a shot without a full shoulder rig.

A stick mic on a boom/broomstick and a recorder. (you dont need lavs or multiple mics)

You can stop there.

Probabvly a shower curtain for diffusion.

Maybe throw in a manual 50 1.8 for arts sake. and a 6 stop solid ND (step ring evberything to fit your 77mm nd filter)

Maybe some lights. Maybe a couple of old stills lenses in the 2-2.8 zone.

Probably some sort of tripod (not really needed at 70mm or wider with in body stabilisation)

An apple box to sit on. Or a camping stool from amazon.

Make a film.

*you can ruin a story by shooting muzz.
 
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Paul F said:
At this point, cameras are so good, it doesn't matter. At least not unless you are doing professional work. If you are buying used, then consider what will sell well when you are ready to move up. Also consider, what is your lens plan? With a $2k camera budget, you can easily spend that or more on a selection of lenses. Accessories will also be a significant expenditure unless the camera you buy comes with a lot of extras.

Many people develop some sort of fandom with a particular brand.

There are so many camera strategies (mirrorless, cinema, stripped down box, etc) that it's difficult to advise that any one brand or type of camera is the way to go.

4k, 10 bit, 4-2-2 is pretty generic these days and offers you many options. I don't think any one opinion is worth listening to. Someone here will put up a really good argument for one camera or the other and that will sway you in that direction.

I will say that if auto-focus is in your plans (which it shouldn't for film making), then Panasonic should be at the bottom of your list.
After that, well, .... let the discussion begin.
Click to expand...
Hi Paul,
Thank you so much for taking the time to write. I have studied your reply and appreciate your wisdom greatly, it has helped me. Tom
 
zpanama123 said:
I am making a low budget film and want to buy a used camera to get started. Renting would make sense if I had decent experience using cameras, but I don't. So I need some hands-on so I can at least work with DP or camera operator.
Click to expand...
I'm trying to read between the lines here--is this your first film? Do you have a specific reason for wanting to buy the camera, is it an economic choice or are you interested in learning about cameras? If so. what aspect of using cameras are you interested in specifically, is it how to manage settings, how to operate a camera etc.

What I'm getting at is that if your main concern is needing experience with cameras to work with a DP or operator, you just need to understand where you want the frame--you can learn that by using the camera on your phone. A good DP can translate that into making the choices they need to on their end. I hear from new or budding directors all the time "I don't really know lenses" and my usual response is "you don't need to".
 
zpanama123 said:
Hi,
Hope this is the right forum, not looking for specific camera brand. I'm new, but I'm hoping to tap your experience. I am making a low budget film and want to buy a used camera to get started. Renting would make sense if I had decent experience using cameras, but I don't. So I need some hands-on so I can at least work with DP or camera operator. I'm tentatively looking at 4k, 10-bit 4-2-2. I'm not sure about sensor size (full frame or super 35). I've been studying YouTube videos, articles, and Reddit posts about Panasonic (EVA1, Varicam), Canon (c500, c300, R8) and Sony (ZV-E1 or even E10). Trying to work with $2k or so, several possibles on ebay, etc. Would be very thankful for anyone's input, opinions come from experience, so all good. Thanks, Tom
Click to expand...
  1. Tom, what is your role in the production?
  2. Why do you need to buy a camera if you're going to have a DP and other camera operators?
  3. Are the DP & other camera operators bringing their own camera package? If so, you might want to get a camera with the same sensor that will match.
  4. Do you anticipate using the camera beyond this project? You might want to consider your future use case, and get a camera that will work for this film and other projects down the road.
  5. Is $2K your entire budget for cameras, lenses, lights, microphones, food, etc.?

Lighting equipment and modifiers matters more than which camera you select.
A lot of cameras will get the job done, just do your research and make sure it isn't prone to overheating, and consider lens availability, and lens mount adaptability.

A few other cameras that come to mind: Blackmagic Pocket 4K, Sony FS7, Panasonic S5, GH5 with focal reducer, etc.

Auto focus is nice for lots of shots, but it's not suited for everything, particularly in narrative filmmaking. Your camera doesn't know precisely what in the scene you want to focus on, and it doesn't know how fast to transition focus between two points. You can set a constant AF transition speed, but you need it more dynamic to match the emotion of the scene, which is one reason why manual focus is still used in this day & age.
Depending on the sensor size you pick, I'd recommend you get a fast 50mm or 80mm manual prime lens, follow focus, baseplate and 15mm rods.

Whatever camera you get, read everything you can about it while it's being shipped to you, that will give you a head start to operating it properly, and give you an idea of what additional accessories you might need.
 
morgan_moore said:
Hello.

Try and follow this trail. It might work for you.

Films are usually made from sequences. wide, CU, ECU.

Wide might be 16mm on S35 or 24mm on FF.

Now there are a billion 24mm fullframe options and not so many 16mm S35 options.

So go fullframe. .. big film makers can access wide fast S35 cinelenses.. we poor folk cant. Only 1pointSomething is fast in S35 world.

Auto focus.. well it could save your bacon. Pulling focus is challenging and requires a solid rig decent monitor and another world of pain.
A green box sitting on your subjwect is awesome - dont let anyone lie to you that it isnt.

You can make a story from AF shots*

So you can make a film with a 24-70 2.8. (WIDE, CU ECU one lens)

Get a 3 stop solid ND on amazon for $15.

A full frame mirrorles body to fit your lens , canon or sony - in body stabilised is very good

This body must have an EVF. so no FX3, 30 or black tragic (wich dont have AF so are rubbish)

No evf? you cant compose and hold a shot without a full shoulder rig.

A stick mic on a boom/broomstick and a recorder. (you dont need lavs or multiple mics)

You can stop there.

Probabvly a shower curtain for diffusion.

Maybe throw in a manual 50 1.8 for arts sake. and a 6 stop solid ND (step ring evberything to fit your 77mm nd filter)

Maybe some lights. Maybe a couple of old stills lenses in the 2-2.8 zone.

Probably some sort of tripod (not really needed at 70mm or wider with in body stabilisation)

An apple box to sit on. Or a camping stool from amazon.

Make a film.

*you can ruin a story by shooting muzz.
Click to expand...
Hi Morgan,
Thank you so much for taking the time to help me, I am studying your advice. You are correct, some of your shorthand is at first challenging for me to follow, but after a few reads I understand I think
1. Lens. This is good advice, many say get prime lens, but your advice for a 24-70mm 2.8 makes more sense to me. I didn't know that the quality would be adequate for film, which exposes my ignorance. What would you say is the minimum quality level in terms of brand? Is Sigma good, for example of 3rd party, or do you go with MFR lenses?
2. AF. Many good filmmakers suggest you don't need autofocus-wow!, but I am just starting, so I think your AF advice is spot on for me and I hadn't considered this. You are correct, there will not be a large crew to do focus pulling, etc.
3. Full frame mirrorless body. Full frame, got it.
4. Canon or Sony. Canon and Sony don't have much in full frame in that price range, even used. If I may ask, what were you thinking ticked full frame and price point?
5. Project specifics. I tried to get my post correct for camera advice, so I didn't mention specifics of project. This is fantasy with all green screen- filming is just actors. Wide will be all the actors in the scene, Closeup might be waist up, Extra close up will be face. As far as I can judge, your advice is still appropriate, but wanted to add this info. For example, is AF still vital when all shooting will be greenscreen with these camera shots?
I really needed the advice you have given, I feel better, thanks, Tom
 
zpanama123 said:
3. Full frame mirrorless body. Full frame, got it.
Click to expand...
Bad advice. If your whole shoot is green screen, especially with multiple actors in a shot, you'd be better served by a camera with a smaller sensor and deeper depth of field. That why it is so important to reveal your whole production plan when seeking advice on a forum. What works for one scenario is often totally wrong for another.
 
CharlesPapert said:
I'm trying to read between the lines here--is this your first film? Do you have a specific reason for wanting to buy the camera, is it an economic choice or are you interested in learning about cameras? If so. what aspect of using cameras are you interested in specifically, is it how to manage settings, how to operate a camera etc.

What I'm getting at is that if your main concern is needing experience with cameras to work with a DP or operator, you just need to understand where you want the frame--you can learn that by using the camera on your phone. A good DP can translate that into making the choices they need to on their end. I hear from new or budding directors all the time "I don't really know lenses" and my usual response is "you don't need to".
Click to expand...
Hi Charles,
Thanks for taking the time to respond. This is very good advice, I think.
1. "is this your first film?". I made the opening film of my series last year, one of my hats is programmer, so all cinemaphotography was done by conractors, and I did everything else with CGI, AI and Davinci in my home studio, added a few hats. To our surprise, we got streaming, 100k views, and lots of festival recognition, so now...live actors for next multi-film in the series lol. No experience before this. I always thought film was out of reach for me- such a big endeavor.
2. I was wondering if I could just practice with my smartphones, but they don't have all the settings, formats, techniques, etc. a cinema camera is a powerful device. I hope I will find a DP and camera operator but am still unsure, if I can't my fallback is myself. So, I'm buying the camera to do both- learn the camera and shoot the actor scenes on green screen, a 3-5 day shoot. Everything else is post. As a newbie, I have to be flexible, it's a journey, etc. I'm not worried, I'm excited to get assistance where I can, like your wonderful input- this was just what I needed to hear. Thanks, Tom
 
Doug Jensen said:
Bad advice. If your whole shoot is green screen, especially with multiple actors in a shot, you'd be better served by a camera with a smaller sensor and deeper depth of field. That why it is so important to reveal your whole production plan when seeking advice on a forum. What works for one scenario is often totally wrong for another.
Click to expand...
Hi Doug,
Thanks for your input. My newbie error, not Morgan's. I spent an hour writing my post last night, but realized what you said too late: my production plan is green screen work. Good to know a smaller sensor will work, the cameras in my budget are super 35, 4/3, aps-c or full frame. When you say depth of field, it's a small stage, maybe 10 feet deep with 1 actor, sometimes 2-4 actors. what depth of field advice do you have? Do you mean using a higher f-stop so all are in focus? If you can detail this advice on depth of field for green screen shots, I will appreciate it immensely. Thanks, Tom
 
Imamacuser said:
  1. Tom, what is your role in the production?
  2. Why do you need to buy a camera if you're going to have a DP and other camera operators?
  3. Are the DP & other camera operators bringing their own camera package? If so, you might want to get a camera with the same sensor that will match.
  4. Do you anticipate using the camera beyond this project? You might want to consider your future use case, and get a camera that will work for this film and other projects down the road.
  5. Is $2K your entire budget for cameras, lenses, lights, microphones, food, etc.?

Lighting equipment and modifiers matters more than which camera you select.
A lot of cameras will get the job done, just do your research and make sure it isn't prone to overheating, and consider lens availability, and lens mount adaptability.

A few other cameras that come to mind: Blackmagic Pocket 4K, Sony FS7, Panasonic S5, GH5 with focal reducer, etc.

Auto focus is nice for lots of shots, but it's not suited for everything, particularly in narrative filmmaking. Your camera doesn't know precisely what in the scene you want to focus on, and it doesn't know how fast to transition focus between two points. You can set a constant AF transition speed, but you need it more dynamic to match the emotion of the scene, which is one reason why manual focus is still used in this day & age.
Depending on the sensor size you pick, I'd recommend you get a fast 50mm or 80mm manual prime lens, follow focus, baseplate and 15mm rods.

Whatever camera you get, read everything you can about it while it's being shipped to you, that will give you a head start to operating it properly, and give you an idea of what additional accessories you might need.
Click to expand...
Hi Imamacuser,
Thanks for taking the time to respond so thoroughly.
1. I was writer, director and producer on first installment of series, done with stock footage, CGI, AI and Davinci. This is second film in series. So, no matter what, I'm to blame.
2,3. You expose my ignorance: a DP or camera operator has gear? That would be cool. In my newbie production plan, I was getting my gear, then crew, then actors. Would you suggest looking for DP/camera operator at the outset? I don't know if I can get a DP or camera operators, so my backup plan is me.
4. It would be nice to use the gear on the next films in the series as there are several series scripts, but if we have more budget, we will probably upgrade or rent good gear. Judging by response, film is the presentation medium for my work going forward, so film it is, love it.
5. Current equipment budget: $800 lighting (6 lights, 2 softboxes, umbrella, stands), $500 sound (mic, boom and recorder), camera/lens $2k. So, that's like $3500.
Great insight, thank you, if my answers inspire you to enlighten me some more, that will be awesome!
Thanks, Tom
 
Zachadoodle said:
In a way, a bigger camera requires a stronger foothold on the industry to people than a smaller camera as they're maybe taken more seriously. Smaller cameras help out with more of a guerilla style of filmmaking compared to big cameras. My advice to you is ask yourself how you're going to film it then pick a camera. The most guerilla in terms of filmmaking is Sony mirrorless cameras; I'd go with that with a small no rail rig.
Click to expand...
Hi Zachadoodle,
Thanks for you insight. Not a run and gun, so guerilla probably not the way to go, all green screen, might go off the set if there is a real good reason but just for landscape backgrounds. I think you are right, big cameras are more impressive, but will be older in my budget. I don't know if they are adequate, hence, my post.
Great advice, if you have more, I appreciate you.
Thanks, Tom
 
morgan_moore said:
I make my living with a canon R6, and a 24-70 F4 .. inside your budget?
Click to expand...
Hi Morgan,
That is a thrilling statement to me, love it, made my day. You can understand that I'm looking at hundreds of options with unlimited costs without a clue. What to do? A pro can do it with that gear? Wonderful. I'm not a pro in film obviously, but as a pro in other fields I know the value of expertise. Any other insights will be appreciated.
Thanks, Tom
 
zpanama123 said:
Hi Doug,
Thanks for your input. My newbie error, not Morgan's. I spent an hour writing my post last night, but realized what you said too late: my production plan is green screen work. Good to know a smaller sensor will work, the cameras in my budget are super 35, 4/3, aps-c or full frame. When you say depth of field, it's a small stage, maybe 10 feet deep with 1 actor, sometimes 2-4 actors. what depth of field advice do you have? Do you mean using a higher f-stop so all are in focus? If you can detail this advice on depth of field for green screen shots, I will appreciate it immensely. Thanks, Tom
Click to expand...
Don't forget 1/2" and 1" cameras. Totally acceptable for what you have planned.
For best results with green screen, you'll want to shoot with a wide-open aperture (do not stop-down) and use a 10-bit 4:2:2 codec or better.
 
Tom, have you shot and keyed out green screen before? It's not the miracle that a lot of people think it is. Special care has to be taken to light the green screen evenly, and at the correct contrast ratio to the actors. Even if you do everything right, you might still have to do some rotoscoping, due to unavoidable shadows.
You need 10-ft distance from your subject to the green screen to avoid shadows.
You need to evenly light the green screen separate from the lights on the actors. I think adequate lights, modifiers, and stands/rigging will cost much more than $800.
I recommend you get a field monitor with false color to gauge whether your green screen is lit evenly.

Some times DPs have their own camera package that you can hire along with them.
Green screen changes my camera recommendations considerably.
Consider MFT cameras like the Blackmagic Pocket series, or Panasonic GH5S, GH6, or GH7.
Camera resolution is very important in pulling a clean key, so it's best to get a camera that supersamples rather than pixel bins.
Disregard my lens recommendation, you'll probably have to apply a fake rack focus in compositing software.
Download the Blackmagic camera app on your phone, it will help you start learning until you've ordered a camera for your film.

You need a hypercardioid condenser mic for recording indoors, which range from $500 - $700 on the cheap side, but you could get one for less if you buy used.
Look at the Audix SCX1-HC, or Audio-Technica AT4053b. On the cheap side, you could compromise with a supercardioid mic, and look at the Audio-Technica AT875R or Rycote SC-08.
It sounds like the crew won't be very experienced, and will be wearing multiple hats, so I'd recommend that you get a 32-bit float audio recorder, ideally with respectable preamps. The TASCAM FR-AV2 comes to mind, which scored a little better than the Zoom equivalent.

Filmmaking gear is expensive, but it's not nearly as expensive as it used to be, just ask Charles.
 
Doug Jensen said:
Don't forget 1/2" and 1" cameras. Totally acceptable for what you have planned.
For best results with green screen, you'll want to shoot with a wide-open aperture (do not stop-down) and use a 10-bit 4:2:2 codec or better.
Click to expand...
Can you elaborate? Wouldn't Tom want to stop down to f/5.6, assuming he could get enough light without resorting to boosting the ISO? In my experience, lenses tend to be sharpest between f/4 - f/11, with f/8 being the sharpest on average. On that note, he'd probably want to shoot with a fairly wide focal length to maximize a deep depth of field, but not so wide that he introduces barrel distortion.
 
1/2" and 1" cameras are sharpest when wide open. Even FF and S35 lenses should look good when wide open, if not, then it's not a good lens.
 
Doug Jensen said:
Don't forget 1/2" and 1" cameras. Totally acceptable for what you have planned.
For best results with green screen, you'll want to shoot with a wide-open aperture (do not stop-down) and use a 10-bit 4:2:2 codec or better.
Click to expand...
Thanks, Doug. So keep lowest fstop like 2.8, depth of field will be ok. What are 1/2" and 1" cameras, don't know that spec? Thanks, Tom
 
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