Francis Ford Coppola's Megalopolis

Paul F said:
So the thought of Mr. Lucas being out of practice doesn't feel right to me. It's more he has changed in how and what he makes because his brain has changed.
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Have you seen Lucas's earliest films? I think the prequels make a fair bit more sense in the context of his filmography if you look at something like THX 1138. Or if you go back further and watch his student films (some of which are on YouTube).

No doubt he's changed over the years, but there is a parallel timeline where George Lucas kept making strange, almost avant-garde films rather than the more traditional (from a story point of view) films of Star Wars (which I love).
 
drboffa said:
Have you seen Lucas's earliest films? I think the prequels make a fair bit more sense in the context of his filmography if you look at something like THX 1138. Or if you go back further and watch his student films (some of which are on YouTube).

No doubt he's changed over the years, but there is a parallel timeline where George Lucas kept making strange, almost avant-garde films rather than the more traditional (from a story point of view) films of Star Wars (which I love).
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Some aspects of the prequels are just so bad... Like the introduction of Jar Jar Binks... Pure embarrassment for all involved, Lucas especially:


Then there were the endless speeder race and other action sequences. Like watching someone else play a video game. It's just bad filmmaking. Nothing like THX 1138. The Andor prison episodes felt a lot more like THX 1138.

That being said, some of the Star Wars DNA was still there in the prequels -- new planet/s, new vehicle/s for each film. And at least the story pushed forward within a broader arc. Unlike Force Awakens, which was a remake of New Hope. And then the two after that, which I didn't see, but apparently contradicted each other.
 
drboffa said:
Have you seen Lucas's earliest films? I think the prequels make a fair bit more sense in the context of his filmography if you look at something like THX 1138. Or if you go back further and watch his student films (some of which are on YouTube).

No doubt he's changed over the years, but there is a parallel timeline where George Lucas kept making strange, almost avant-garde films rather than the more traditional (from a story point of view) films of Star Wars (which I love).
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He changed his path a lot. From starting out wanting to be an anthropologist to being a photographer and he discovered film by accident. He found out he had a talent for it and he liked it. He was very much into what he calls tone poems. Coppola pushed him to make something marketable. That led to Graffiti and Star Wars. Once you get the taste of money, it can change one's focus.
 
ahalpert said:
Some aspects of the prequels are just so bad... Like the introduction of Jar Jar Binks... Pure embarrassment for all involved, Lucas especially:


Then there were the endless speeder race and other action sequences. Like watching someone else play a video game. It's just bad filmmaking. Nothing like THX 1138. The Andor prison episodes felt a lot more like THX 1138.

That being said, some of the Star Wars DNA was still there in the prequels -- new planet/s, new vehicle/s for each film. And at least the story pushed forward within a broader arc. Unlike Force Awakens, which was a remake of New Hope. And then the two after that, which I didn't see, but apparently contradicted each other.
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Two things happened between the first batch and second batch of movies. 1. Mr. Lucas largely took a 15 year break from movies. His divorce was devastating. He spent those years raising his children, worked on his educational foundation, and many other things that interested him. 2. Visual effects capability was vastly improved. I though Jar Jar was fine. But to properly critique the character, I would first have to see the movie as a 7 year old.
 
ahalpert said:
Some aspects of the prequels are just so bad... Like the introduction of Jar Jar Binks... Pure embarrassment for all involved, Lucas especially:

Then there were the endless speeder race and other action sequences. Like watching someone else play a video game. It's just bad filmmaking. Nothing like THX 1138. The Andor prison episodes felt a lot more like THX 1138.

That being said, some of the Star Wars DNA was still there in the prequels -- new planet/s, new vehicle/s for each film. And at least the story pushed forward within a broader arc. Unlike Force Awakens, which was a remake of New Hope. And then the two after that, which I didn't see, but apparently contradicted each other.
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Okay I'm definitely not going to try defending Jar Jar Binks :LOL:

I did a rewatch of the prequels a few years ago, thinking they were due for a reevaluation before the latest batch of sequels came out (so this was like 2015 or so). I do not find them particularly enjoyable, although I know that for a younger generation they're apparently beloved by many.

That said, I think there's merit in the idea that Lucas wasn't content to just remake Star Wars, which is essentially what the first sequel did (they get progressively worse after that—you're better off having not seen them). His ideas changed, and he tried to show us a complicated political world at an intergalactic scale. Are the prequels good in the conventional sense, within the accepted norms of good filmmaking? Probably not. But I think they're far more interesting than the sequels (although The Force Awakens is kinda fun).

Also I'd agree wholeheartedly that Andor feels in some ways more aligned with THX 1138 than anything else. I thought it was fantastic from start to finish.
 
Paul F said:
He changed his path a lot. From starting out wanting to be an anthropologist to being a photographer and he discovered film by accident. He found out he had a talent for it and he liked it. He was very much into what he calls tone poems. Coppola pushed him to make something marketable. That led to Graffiti and Star Wars. Once you get the taste of money, it can change one's focus.
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Yeah but then he spent the rest of his career in VFX. Surely he could have done whatever he wanted after finishing the original trilogy.
 
Paul F said:
Two things happened between the first batch and second batch of movies. 1. Mr. Lucas largely took a 15 year break from movies. His divorce was devastating. He spent those years raising his children, worked on his educational foundation, and many other things that interested him. 2. Visual effects capability was vastly improved. I though Jar Jar was fine. But to properly critique the character, I would first have to see the movie as a 7 year old.
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I can enjoy the minor characters and comic relief of the original trilogy as an adult. Jar Jar is written painfully thinly. And it's really odd that this guy with a Jamaican accent and dreads-like head shape is completely incapable of fending for himself and then enthusiastically decides to become this other guy's servant. But forget about that for a moment and what you have left is weak dialogue and character development.

Weak dialogue and character development are the main problems with the prequel trilogy. From Padme to Anakin to everyone else.

A New Hope has a fantastic script. And all the world building of the Star Wars universe is so gracefully introduced in just that one film.
 
I think I'm in full ah
drboffa said:
Okay I'm definitely not going to try defending Jar Jar Binks :LOL:

I did a rewatch of the prequels a few years ago, thinking they were due for a reevaluation before the latest batch of sequels came out (so this was like 2015 or so). I do not find them particularly enjoyable, although I know that for a younger generation they're apparently beloved by many.

That said, I think there's merit in the idea that Lucas wasn't content to just remake Star Wars, which is essentially what the first sequel did (they get progressively worse after that—you're better off having not seen them). His ideas changed, and he tried to show us a complicated political world at an intergalactic scale. Are the prequels good in the conventional sense, within the accepted norms of good filmmaking? Probably not. But I think they're far more interesting than the sequels (although The Force Awakens is kinda fun).

Also I'd agree wholeheartedly that Andor feels in some ways more aligned with THX 1138 than anything else. I thought it was fantastic from start to finish.
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I think I'm in full agreement with you.

Regarding the prequels and Gen Z, I was dismayed when the 26-year old PA at Christie's referred to New Hope as episode 4 and put it on the same level as the prequels. Sure, it's episode 4. But I always called it Star Wars or A New Hope. And I never took the prequels as seriously after they failed to live up to the hype.
 
I've had an inside perspective on Jar Jar almost since the beginning. I met Ahmed Best, the voice and mo-cap body inside Jar Jar, around 2001 through the theatre company I was peripherally involved with. We collaborated many times over the years--I directed him as an actor, I shot for him when he directed, we are friends with lots of history. I've heard the stories firsthand, watched his struggle, saw how it trounced his acting career. There were things I didn't know about how bad it got, some of which came out in recent years. One of the more interesting things was how Lucas consoled him after the public backlash against the character: he said, wait it out. The kids who love these movies today will grow up without that animosity and new kids will find the character and eventually those voices will drown out the haters. And that's largely what's happened--kids always responded more favorably to the character.

For the record, no-one wrote anything they need to backpedal on for my behalf. I don't care much for Jar Jar either, (really there's not much in those prequels I do care for) but of course given my perspective I always separated the character from the performance and appreciated what Ahmed brought to it. Mostly I'm really glad to see how Ahmed was brought back into the fold in recent years and his new Jedi character integrated into The Mandalorian.

This article has some interesting insights: https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-...-jar-binks-the-phantom-menace-the-mandalorian
 
CharlesPapert said:
I've had an inside perspective on Jar Jar almost since the beginning. I met Ahmed Best, the voice and mo-cap body inside Jar Jar, around 2001 through the theatre company I was peripherally involved with. We collaborated many times over the years--I directed him as an actor, I shot for him when he directed, we are friends with lots of history. I've heard the stories firsthand, watched his struggle, saw how it trounced his acting career. There were things I didn't know about how bad it got, some of which came out in recent years. One of the more interesting things was how Lucas consoled him after the public backlash against the character: he said, wait it out. The kids who love these movies today will grow up without that animosity and new kids will find the character and eventually those voices will drown out the haters. And that's largely what's happened--kids always responded more favorably to the character.

For the record, no-one wrote anything they need to backpedal on for my behalf. I don't care much for Jar Jar either, (really there's not much in those prequels I do care for) but of course given my perspective I always separated the character from the performance and appreciated what Ahmed brought to it. Mostly I'm really glad to see how Ahmed was brought back into the fold in recent years and his new Jedi character integrated into The Mandalorian.

This article has some interesting insights: https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-...-jar-binks-the-phantom-menace-the-mandalorian
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Why would there be a backlash against the actor instead of the director?

Anyway, the smartest choice the prequels made was to disappear the character after episode 1. It seems like Lucas gave into the "haters" after all.

I don't know about the fallout for Ahmed but I don't condone a backlash against him.
 
ahalpert said:
Why would there be a backlash against the actor instead of the director?

Anyway, the smartest choice the prequels made was to disappear the character after episode 1. It seems like Lucas gave into the "haters" after all.

I don't know about the fallout for Ahmed but I don't condone a backlash against him.
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But do you condone the backlash at Mr. Lucas? We humans are a cruel bunch. Here we are; we haven't done dick compared to what Mr. Lucas did, and yet we're experts about what he did wrong, what his motivations were/are, and what he should have done. That includes me.
 
ahalpert said:
Yeah but then he spent the rest of his career in VFX. Surely he could have done whatever he wanted after finishing the original trilogy.
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He spent virtually all his career in VFX. He built the premiere VFX house. He kept pushing for better and better. His organization did the groundbreaking effects as Aliens/marines, Terminator 2, Jurassic Park, Total Recall, Back to the Future, ..... He pushed Sony to make digital cameras for cinema. He pioneered making episodic TV shows on 16mm with VFX.
 
Paul F said:
He spent virtually all his career in VFX. He built the premiere VFX house. He kept pushing for better and better. His organization did the groundbreaking effects as Aliens/marines, Terminator 2, Jurassic Park, Total Recall, Back to the Future, ..... He pushed Sony to make digital cameras for cinema. He pioneered making episodic TV shows on 16mm with VFX.
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Sure. Great achievements. I'm just saying that he didn't go into making experimental films once he was a rich man. I'm sure he really enjoyed working in VFX. It's not a criticism, just a response to the commentary about him being a poet at heart or whatever.
 
Paul F said:
But do you condone the backlash at Mr. Lucas? We humans are a cruel bunch. Here we are; we haven't done dick compared to what Mr. Lucas did, and yet we're experts about what he did wrong, what his motivations were/are, and what he should have done. That includes me.
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Live by the sword, die by the sword. Lucas is worshipped as a God for what he gave us in the original trilogy. Does he expect to be worshipped as a God for making crappy films as well? His fans were disappointed.

I don't condone bullying or harassment.

But creative criticism is absolutely fair game. Lucas himself said he felt like he had sold his "kids" to "the white slavers" after seeing what Disney did with Force Awakens. (I think he later apologized for making that offensive comment.) Clearly, he wasn't happy with the direction they took the story. Fine. That's his right. But how is that going to make the people working on those new films feel? Hey, that's art. You put your work out there and people judge it.

Are you saying that only massively successful filmmakers should be able to critique his work? Preposterous. Everyone can enjoy his films and everyone can critique them. That's why it's fun.

By the way - I love the original trilogy. I quote it constantly. I watched all 3 films many, many times when I was a child.
 
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I think what I was trying to say, in my backhanded way, is that we are allowed to give criticism to everyone, be it Jar Jar or Lucas.
ahalpert said:
Sure. Great achievements. I'm just saying that he didn't go into making experimental films once he was a rich man.
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Yes, this puzzle's me because in many interviews he said that was what he was going to do after he was done with Star Wars. He did make Red Tails, which is not experimental, but sort of his Megalopolis. It was a film he fully financed because no one in Hollywood would finance it. They said it would flop, which it did.

Then he did Strange Magic, which I hear was strange. It was sort of another attempt to make a movie that had a commercial sound track running through it like American Graffiti. But where are the 'small experimental films no one wants to see' that he has talked about so often.

He's busy with his museum and his wife is getting him out of the house with social engagements.
 
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