Nikon Z9 update to get Internal 12 bit N-Raw, 8.3K 60 FPS

[Doug Jensen]

To characterize the R7 or R5 as an "external" recorder when mounted on the Venice or F55 shows a complete misunderstanding of that combination of equipment. There is absolutely nothing about that combo that would give anyone who is familiar with it a second thought or regret about using it.

 

[NorBro]

Apple could win with PRR, but I don't understand why they didn't sort this out before they went and launched an origination codec that can't be used in-camera.

They did try to challenge them but lost in court...but I still think it's going to make its way into devices, one way or another in half a decade or so.

[The RED Raven/accessories bundle was sold in the Apple store (online) around 2016/2017, so Apple was likely trying to wine-and-dine them a bit before, ha.]

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If any patents continue then everyone will keep paying RED and it will be done. And you'll continue to have a bunch of internal RAW cameras that are great but still not the best like ARRI or RED.

I used to think RAW was the end-all be-all but it's so not.

After using ARRI, dynamic range and color are the end-all be-all, IMO.

An extra stop and amazing skin tones under all kinds of wacky lighting separates the best from the pretty great (and 95% of cameras today are pretty great).

 

[jonpais]

To characterize the R7 or R5 as an "external" recorder when mounted on the Venice or F55 shows a complete misunderstanding of that combination of equipment. There is absolutely nothing about that combo that would give anyone who is familiar with it a second thought or regret about using it.

No one in this thread ever claimed that Sony’s external RAW recorder was a burden to use or that anyone ever regretted using one.

 

[Doug Jensen]

No one in this thread ever claimed that Sony’s RAW recorder was a burden to use or that anyone ever regretted using one.

Seriously? Go back and read post #100 by Doug Bee . . .

But that is not how real users feel about external recorders. That is certainly not why anyone choosing Venice is making that choice. No one wants to use an external recorder. There is no upside and only downsides.

How do YOU interpret that statement?

 

[jonpais]

Seriously? Go back and read post #100 by Doug Bee . . .




How do YOU interpret that statement?

Looks like you’re right! That is the only way to characterize Doug Bee’s statement.

 

[Doug Bee]

They did try to challenge them but lost in court...

Yeah but why do that AFTER you've developed and announced and launched a new camera codec. I think it was a miss step. Like they didn't realize it would be a problem. Apple could have easily tried to flip the patent without developing or announcing the codec. I think it was Apple that initiated the court process, not Red. Doesn't make sense to me...

but I still think it's going to make its way into devices, one way or another in half a decade or so.

Maybe. Apple don't care about the creatives much anymore. I don't think PRR does much for tiktokkers...

An extra stop and amazing skin tones under all kinds of wacky lighting separates the best from the pretty great (and 95% of cameras today are pretty great).

Bit depth. High DR and enough bits to do what you want with the image.

 

[Doug Bee]

No one in this thread ever claimed that Sony’s external RAW recorder was a burden to use or that anyone ever regretted using one.

PRR is a crippled codec that will never live up to its potential because no one wants to use external recorders.

You squealed Venice! The one external recorder that is at least an integrated design, doesn't record PRR and which has now been dropped anyway on the current version of Venice.

 

[NorBro]

Yeah but why do that AFTER you've developed and announced and launched a new camera codec. I think it was a miss step. Like they didn't realize it would be a problem. Apple could have easily tried to flip the patent without developing or announcing the codec. I think it was Apple that initiated the court process, not Red. Doesn't make sense to me...

I would agree that Apple probably underestimated the situation and the relationship went sour. Obviously they want PRR in iPhones. (Or maybe they wanted it to become an industry-standard like PR was and put it in ARRIs, but I doubt it.)

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Bit depth. High DR and enough bits to do what you want with the image.

If you have both - 12-14-16 bits AND 15+ true stops of DR - then, yes, I think so. But if you have barely 12 stops of DR (no matter what the camera companies claim) then 12-14-16 bits can only do so much for you.

And paper specs are not created equally. What a company does with a sensor and allows us to have (sometimes for more money) is most important. [Two cameras with very similar paper specs can vary greatly.]

I've worked with almost all RAWs; Cinema DNG, KineRAW, CRL, Blackmagic RAW, ZRAW, PRR (in that order), and I still prefer 12-bit 444 ProRes from a 13-year-old 2K Alexa Classic. The way you can bend those pixels is insane. You can push the WB with regular sliders with the PR more than with other internal "RAW" cameras.

 

[Doug Bee]

and I still prefer 12-bit 444 ProRes from a 13-year-old 2K Alexa Classic. The way you can bend those pixels is insane. You can push the WB with regular sliders with the PR more than with other internal "RAW" cameras.

12 bit log is the same as 16 bit linear. No one is doing more than that at the moment that I know of in video so you're happy with what the high benchmark is

Of course it helps that the source color is good and the DR is there as well.

Bit depth doesn't matter when you're shooting straight out of camera or don't need to do much. But you sure do notice it when you've got mixed lighting and you're trying to pull a secondary key for color timing or very narrow hue in the grade.

I see people say all the time there's no visual difference between 8 bit, 10 bit and 12 bit and that's true to a large extent. It's when you try to move the grade around you notice it.

 

[NorBro]

There is so much more color information jumping from 8-bit to 12-bit that one should expect, see a difference - but I definitely used to say there is not much of a difference for most people going from 10-bit to 12-bit if they are just messing around with the contrast or saturation, minor tweaks here and there.

If one is completely destroying the pixels, manipulating everything, you'll need the most specs you can get.