10 questions for a story concept

I hear you Nektonic. I also usually prefer the idea of creating something original. For me, adapting works is simply an easier starting point. Who knows? Maybe I'm just a better editor than I am a writer?

Still, I think most of Tobin's ten questions sound pretty solid. I wonder if most current marquee film and TV writers value theme as strongly as us indy-types do. I mean, hell, why say something unless you have something worth saying, right?

Not that I don't love explosions, because I do.
 
Awake-In-Anamorphic said:
He should have done 21. Anyhow, I don't think I'm belittling folks on the forums to say that most can't write and never will be able to. They can do other things very well, I'm sure. And the sooner they realize it, the better their films will be. Very few great directors write their own scripts, after all....
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Awake-In-Anamorphic, are you a aspiring screenwriter, established screenwriter, filmmaker (shorts? feature?)? Why did you join up here on dvxuser.com?
 
Hey Randall. I know I sounded very black and white. Your list will probably help people who do have some ability. I agree with you: there are some cinema conventions we need to be aware of when writing scripts. I guess Robert McKee said it best when he published that giant book, "Story," and then in the end says put it on a shelf and forget about it. (Oh, but when's the last time McKee had one of his scripts produced? Never, I think.)

The story has to come from within, not from a book or checklist, and the ability to express a story on paper is really a rare ability. Everyone believes they can write, because we can all hold a pen and spell our name. But how often do you read an "aspiring screenwriter's" work and say, wow, this is incredible. As a somewhat established writer, I've also read a ton of scripts. My final conclusion is most people can't do it and never will. Hey, Stephen King says the same thing in his amazing book "On Writing" (highly, highly recommended and entertaining too--that dude can write). So I'm not the only party pooper. King even says he used to believe people can learn to write. He changed his mind. I have too.

As for why I joined DVXuser...I promise it wasn't just to rain on everyone's parade or make people feel bad. There's a community of talented people here. I appreciate the information they have to share. I just really believe many "aspiring filmmakers" would do so much better if they realized there are some people who can really write, and maybe it's worth trying to find them. We can't all be supermodels either, as much as I wish I was! A book ain't gonna help me there either.
 
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But you still have not answered the question--why did you join dvxuser.com?

As for Robert McKee (author of the book Story), he was done a lot more in practicing what he preaches than many writers of how-to screenwriting books: "In 1979, McKee moved to Los Angeles, where he began to write screenplays and work as a story analyst for United Artists and NBC. He sold his first screenplay Dead Files to AVCO/Embassy Films, after which he joined the WGA (Writers Guild of America). His next screenplay, Hard Knocks, won the National Screenwriting Contest, and since then McKee has had eight feature film screenplays purchased or optioned, including the feature film script Trophy for Warner Bros. (the film, however, was not produced). In addition to his screenplays, McKee has had a number of scripts produced for television series such as Quincy, M.E. (starring Jack Klugman), Columbo (starring Peter Falk), Spenser: for Hire and Kojak (starring Telly Savalas)." (Source, Wikipedia.org)

One has to wonder why McKee would write such an extensive how-to book on learning to write screenplays and master the craft of storytelling, being a successful screenwriter himself as well as a professor who teachers it to interested students at a university, if he did not believe it is a craft that can be learned (as opposed to your thesis that you either have the talent innately or you do not, and if you do not then one should just not even bother studying the craft to master the craft).
~randall
 
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But don't you think you were being judgmental in stating that almost all of us aspiring screenwriters here do not have any talent and are wasting our time? That thesis statement has no basis in fact from anything you have said, because for one thing you have not read our feature scripts. Statistically most aspiring writers produce bad scripts, but with time and training who can say what quality of scripts they have yet to write if they persist? I would say in fact that those here on the dvxuser screenwriting forum are likely producing or will produce much better screenplays than many aspiring writers, (and the scripts yet to be written by members here is what counts, since we are debating the ability to learn the craft, which is why we are here, and not what the current quality of members' writing is) simply by the fact that many aspiring writers probably do not even participate on learning forums seriously as we do. And in fact, there are writers here who have learned the craft over time through studying and reading many book and screenplays, and who have thus sold their screenplays.

I went to a local screenwriters group in my town. The people there were aspiring screenwriters. Their screenplays were horribly and improperly formatted, were written using MS-Word, were full of spelling and grammar errors. They had never heard of any of the books on screenwriting we routinely discuss here in this forum. They did not even know about turning points and such, amazing as that sounds. And these were aspiring writers who had written 5-10 feature screenplays. Yet I believe even those writers could learn the craft if they really went the distance, but they do not even seem to have a clue how to google for simple formatting rules, find a few books on screenwriting from the local library or off Amazon.com. I put those aspiring screenwriters in a completely different group than the aspiring screenwriters here on dvxuser.com or similar serious screenwriting forums on the net; I would hope you could rethink your statement and see this to be true. Perhaps you need to hang around here longer and see who is here and read many of the serious educational discussion threads that happen here.

I just do not see the evidence for your thesis that members here on this forum have no talent and have no hope of learning the craft. Can you provide some objective evidence for that belief of yours? Curious minds want to know.
=) randall
 
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Eximious said:
Not that I don't love explosions, because I do.
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An explosion with meaning behind it is that much sweeter. How about in T2, when Miles Dyson blows up his lab, his life's work thrown out the windows of the Cyberdyne building in a massive fireball?

Or in Speed, how Dennis Hopper's villain explains the purpose of a bomb, giving it a context and a meaning all while revealing something about his character.

Awake-In-Anamorphic said:
The story has to come from within, not from a book or checklist, and the ability to express a story on paper is really a rare ability. Everyone believes they can write, because we can all hold a pen and spell our name. But how often do you read an "aspiring screenwriter's" work and say, wow, this is incredible. As a somewhat established writer, I've also read a ton of scripts. My final conclusion is most people can't do it and never will. Hey, Stephen King says the same thing in his amazing book "On Writing" (highly, highly recommended and entertaining too--that dude can write). So I'm not the only party pooper. King even says he used to believe people can learn to write. He changed his mind. I have too.
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I actually have an interesting theory about storytelling/writing natural talent vs. learned talent. If you think of it, everyone can tell a story. Some better than others. It all goes back to days of early man, sitting around their campfires telling tales of the gods and monsters that they thought controlled the world. Storytelling is ingrained in our species, probably at the genetic level.

Now what this means is that yes, some have more natural talent than others. But even the ones with an abundance of natural talent must still learn about the industry. They must be aware of what factors the studios use to determine what makes a good script vs. a bad one. They must know proper formatting and what is appropriate for the market they wish to write for. This all comes into how they are going to pitch their story when it comes time to sell it to anyone, the local butcher who you are trying to summarize it for after he asks what you do, or the studio executive who might open up the studio's wallet and pay you for your work. If a development executive or director asks the writer how he or she came up with a certain character's arc, and the writer says, "what's an arc? Is that what Noah used to save all those animals?" The person asking the question will instantly think this writer is an amateur. I think that even with natural talent, it can be beneficial to still read about the various theories and craft related technical elements and techniques to see if anything seems of value to the writing process.

This pertains to both writing and directing, but look at M. Night Shyamalan. On his films DVD's he always includes an old short film that he did as a kid on the special features section. These films are god-awful and hilarious because of how bad they are. Yet, this is the same man who gave us The Sixth Sense. After that he made a couple of successful films, yet not as successful as Sixth Sense. Now he is at a completely different place due to the public not liking his last two films. Many people who loved his early films and called him a good or even great writer might now say he is a bad writer. There are no absolutes in art. One minute you're up, the second you're down. If it was all about natural talent, then why do artists who are successful (implying that they have natural talent) eventually fall from grace years later? George Lucas anybody?

So what determines if someone can actually have a career in screenwriting or write a good script? How do we know whether we have natural talent or not? If a writer's first script sucks, is he or she doomed as a writer? If so, I should just give up writing because I've written several sucky scripts, both shorts and a feature or two. I just don't think things are so black and white when it comes to talent vs. learning the craft. They both compliment each other.

Even if I never make it as a produced writer, I will still have benefited from the act of writing. I think we all get too worried about whether we will be successful and forget to enjoy the ride. The feature script I'm working on currently is still in the outlining and plotting stages, yet so far I've seen alien worlds, robots tending a vineyard, life on one of Saturn's moons, and a massive space colony ravaged by a strange race of conquering aliens. That is why I got into screenwriting, to go places I've never been and return with the best darn story possible to share with the world. Maybe that will be only one person, maybe millions.

I do agree with you about "On Writing". Great book.

We can't all be supermodels either, as much as I wish I was! A book ain't gonna help me there either.
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Without the normal and mundane looking people, supermodels wouldn't exist.

Actually, just as screenwriting has elements that must be mastered beyond just the actual writing of the script, I'm sure supermodeling is more than just looking good.
 
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Randall_Oelerich said:
But don't you think you were being judgmental in stating that almost all of us aspiring screenwriters here do not have any talent and are wasting our time?... I just do not see the evidence for your thesis that members here on this forum have no talent and have no hope of learning the craft. =) randall
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You may well be extremely talented. I wasn't singling you out. I guess we might differ on whether great writing is a rare talent or not. I think it's rare. Do you? Can anyone write a great novel or screenplay? If everyone can, how come so few great scripts cross our paths?

If it is indeed a rare talent--as I believe it is--it stands to reason most of us on this forum can't really do it all that well. It's not a crime! As I said, many folks on this forum exhibit other great talents. Cinematography, editing, composing, directing, performing, visual effects. You might be one of those rare individuals who who can write really well. Only time and a lot of writing will tell the truth of the matter.

Anyhow, no matter what, if you're passionate about stories and writing, then don't listen to anyone else, and just keep writing. We won't know for sure until we try right? And your checklist is as good a place to start as any. I agree with you on that.


Nektonic said:
I actually have an interesting theory about storytelling/writing natural talent vs. learned talent. If you think of it, everyone can tell a story. Some better than others. It all goes back to days of early man, sitting around their campfires telling tales of the gods and monsters that they thought controlled the world. Storytelling is ingrained in our species, probably at the genetic level.

Now what this means is that yes, some have more natural talent than others. But even the ones with an abundance of natural talent must still learn about the industry. They must be aware of what factors the studios use to determine what makes a good script vs. a bad one. They must know proper formatting and what is appropriate for the market they wish to write for....So what determines if someone can actually have a career in screenwriting or write a good script? I just don't think things are so black and white when it comes to talent vs. learning the craft. They both compliment each other.

Even if I never make it as a produced writer, I will still have benefited from the act of writing.
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Yes, totally agree. The desire to tell stories is ingrained in us. It's part of what makes us human. And, as you also say, our talents for storytelling have a range. Some are better than others. But today, unlike the ancient caveman around the campfire, we have to PAY money to listen to a story told on film. And don't forget, it costs millions of dollars to tell that story, so there's no point in wasting effort and money on a story that anybody can tell. Unlike the campfire story, which costs nothing except a few minutes of our time, we filmmakers have to find the story that is as rare as a $50 million diamond. Those don't come around every day. (Or if it's a short film, I guess it has to be as rare as a $5000 diamond right?)

Totally agree that writing is a worthy pursuit no matter whether you make your living that way.
 
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Randall_Oelerich said:
I went to a local screenwriters group in my town. The people there were aspiring screenwriters. ... They did not even know about turning points and such, amazing as that sounds. And these were aspiring writers who had written 5-10 feature screenplays. Yet I believe even those writers could learn the craft if they really went the distance.=) randall
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This is where Stephen King and I disagree with you. I don't believe they can learn the art by going any distance. As you said, 10 screenplays later, the whole lot of them were still writing bad scripts.
 
Awake-In-Anamorphic said:
If you're really honest, you might realize sooner than 10 years that hiring another writer is a great idea. If you're passionate about stories and writing, then don't listen to anyone else, and just keep writing.
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This is just me, but I will never put a time limit on when I have to be successful by. Sure, setting goals are beneficial, but I will never say something like, "in 5 or 10 years if I'm not successful then I'll give up". What if year 11 is when that big break finally happens?

There is a story that pertains to this:

A young man who is an aspiring musician goes to a solo performance of a renowned composer. After the performance the man asks the composer for advice. The composer says, "play something for me". The man does, but the composer says that it is no good and that he should just give up on music and do something else. He does. Years later the man is at a party and the famous composer is there as well. The man goes up and asks the composer if he remembers him. The man tells the composer that he really wanted to be a great musician and composer, but he quit because the composer told him that he had no talent. The composer replies with, "if you really wanted to do it you would have kept with it and not listened to me".

You are right about working with others though. It can be a beneficial change that gives us insight into how others do things and can enrich our own work in the future.

Awake-In-Anamorphic said:
This is where Stephen King and I disagree with you. I don't believe they can learn the art by going any distance. As you said, 10 screenplays later, the whole lot of them were still writing bad scripts.
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I think that Randall was trying to say that if they would open their minds to the fact that they can't just sit down in front of the computer and write without any practical knowledge of the craft, they could improve. Some people never learn or admit that they need to change their habits to get better at something. I think that is what he meant by his analogy. When I started pursuing screenwriting, I used to be similar to some of those people Randall is talking about. I used MS Word. I didn't read about the industry and the craft, and even when I started I never dove in like I should've. Even now I see cracks in my methods that can be filled. I'm willing to change the way I do things for the sake of improvement. That is what gives me an extra boost of confidence that I will get there eventually. Some don't admit that a change in their methods is needed though, and their work dies on the vine. Me, I want mine to ripen.
 
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But we are not talking about (or at least that was not the original premise or argument) whether I write well or whether dvxmembers here write well, the point was made that people here (aspiring writers, dvxuser.com members here in the screenwriting forum specifically) can not learn to write well. I still maintain most people can in theory learn to write well, if they persist. But your original statement was to the effect that writers here have no hope of ever writing well and so should just give up and do something else in life.

Can writing be learned? Or is it simply a case of you either have the talent or you do not, you are born a genius talented writer and have no need of courses or books, etc? I think it can be learned, almost anybody can learn to write a good story if they persist. Even a good screenplay can be produced into an average crap ass flick-- there is some really really bad material on the shelves of Blockbuster or Netflix. And some writers will have more natural talent and motley lives to lend to their stories than others and the stories will come easier than others, but anybody can learn to write well with extra learning and persistence.

Evidence for my claim that writing can be learned:

First, all the improvement in writing that is objectively seen from students that take writing courses and advance and write better and better, as judged by the teachers that grade their papers, and by coverage consultant readers that give unbiased cold feedback on screenplays.

Second, take a look at Ernest Hemingway, arguably one of the greatest writers ever. Was he a genius, able to type out marvelous novels from the start of his inspiration? No. Rather he learned the craft slowly and progressively using books that taught him, and by starting out slow with short stories, with short newspaper articles as a grunt reporter, honing and learning his craft. Then eventually he tackled a novel. Anybody here see the analogy with screenwriters-- learning from books, teachers, writing shorts, using style guides, eventually tackling feature length screenplays. I am not saying I or anybody here is going to be another Hemingway. What I am saying is it is a great case in point that genius is over rated, greatness as has often been said is more persistence and sweat and plain hard work learning the craft rather than magical innate talent.

My two cents of thought.
~randall
 
It's a good old debate. Old as the hills. Older than film school or no film school debates.

Guess it's just the conclusion I have arrived at. Stephen King arrives at the same conclusion in his book "On Writing."

But I totally agree that no one can tell the artist whether he has it or not. Too many great writers have been told they don't have it, and they later prove the critic wrong. There's another great book of Famous Rejection Letters. It's hilarious to read the brutal, harsh and damning rejections of some of the world's greatest books! :-)
 
Awake-In-Anamorphic said:
...Guess it's just the conclusion I have arrived at. Stephen King arrives at the same conclusion in his book "On Writing." ...
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I will have to check out King's book. I did find this blog entry about the book by King, On Writing. But if you read about King's life, it seems similar to Hemingway in that he started out simple, wrote short stories (learning the craft), he even studied English (to learn the craft), wrote little newspaper articles (again, learning the craft), took writing workshops (again, learning the craft). Must not have been that good yet because he couldn't get a job teaching English even after graduating college. But eventually he did get a teaching job. One has to wonder why King would want to take a job as an English teacher if he thought writing could not be taught? He "continued to contribute short stories to magazines and worked on ideas for novels." He finally wrote a novel (Carrie), but that came only after all the previous training (dare I say 'learning the craft'?) writing shorts, newspaper articles, taking writing workshops, getting a degree in English. I just do not see why King would think writing can not be learned, as such a statement denies his own history. Interesting.
=) randall
 
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Did Stephen King say you can't learn to write, or that you can't teach someone to write? I reckon the latter would be closer to the truth.

You can certainly learn to write better if you are self critical and persistent and most of all if you enjoy it. A lot the mechanics can be learnt. You can study other writers to see how to pace things, build tension. You can learn structure fairly easily. Format takes about a day at most to learn.

I've heard it said that the only thing that can't be learnt when it comes to screenwriting is dialogue. You can either write dialogue or you can't. I'm personally not even sure I'd go that far. An acting course could help with that, just genuinely listening to people and such should help with that IMO, but then again, who knows?

One thing is this though, writers write. That's probably why someone like King would say you're either a writer or you aren't. It's something that you are driven to do. Lots of people want to write, but they find excuses not to. Writing can be hard work at times as I'm sure you all know. A lot of people haven't got the willpower to really develop the craft.

So you can kind of see why someone would think that writers are born. They're the ones that have been writing and writing and developing and developing and so wherever they are in the grand scheme of things they are still on the right path.

Plus storytelling is a natural art. Some people are incredible raconteurs. They can command a whole rooms rapt attention with an anecdote. Another person can tell the same story and it's boring.

I think it is often the case in ALL human fields of endeavour that you can tell whose got a chance of making it and who hasn't.

Usually the best writers have something to say at the very start of the process, even if they haven't got the craft quite nailed yet. A professional actor I worked with on my first proper short said you can always tell who is going to make it as a director.

I started out acting and I reckon you can tell within seconds if someone has got what it takes to be a good actor. It's just there in their face and in their tone of voice and in their eyes.

There's probably always exceptions though.
 
I know someone who wants to write a feature screenplay, be a screenwriter, yet does not write, keeps claiming he can not find even 15 minutes each day to write. Yet curiously he and others seems to find those 15 minutes to watch movies and play World of Warcraft. Writers write. If you write 10 minutes on a given day you get to call yourself a writer that day. I love google docs for writing up until I am ready to put something in to screenplay format with Movie Magic Screenwriter; google docs lets me jump in and writer whether i am using a laptop at a cafe or a desktop home PC etc., and gd handles revisions, backups, data storage, etc.
~randall
 
Anyone can learn/develop the CRAFT of screenwriting; it's the ART of screenwriting that elludes so many.
 
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Randall_Oelerich said:
Writers write. If you write 10 minutes on a given day you get to call yourself a writer that day. I love google docs for writing up until I am ready to put something in to screenplay format with Movie Magic Screenwriter; google docs lets me jump in and writer whether i am using a laptop at a cafe or a desktop home PC etc., and gd handles revisions, backups, data storage, etc.
~randall
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Ok... first, a writer is one who gets paid to write. George Washington chopped down a Cherry Tree, but that didn't make him a Lumberjack.

Second, using phrases like "lets me jump in and writer" won't get you a paycheck ;)
 
Hey I was just sipping my first cup of coffee for the morning, sitting on a stuffed chair at a coffee shop using a little subnotebook pc, cut me a little slack on a typo. =)
 
Why cut you any slack? Nobody else in the Business world will. If you want to be a writer, it is little things like that you need to make a conscious effort to at least check before submitting. Just keeping you honest :)
 
Capt Quirk said:
Why cut you any slack? Nobody else in the Business world will. If you want to be a writer, it is little things like that you need to make a conscious effort to at least check before submitting. Just keeping you honest :)
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Be careful tossing stones if you live in a glass house: :beer:
From one of your posts: "I'm creating a an animation for my website's header section".
Stay honest,
=) randall
 
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