How do YOU deal with the hard drive hand-off?

Green Hornet

Green Hornet

Veteran
In the tape based days,
I use to do a lot of stuff where I was the camera man, and after shooting, you got paid and handed off the tape.

Today, there is no tape (at least not with P2 or AVCHD),
so how are you dealing with the footage hand off?

It seems like so much more, the client wants to SEE the footage.

The problem with this is you have shoot time, and transfer time, now the SHOW TIME can be anywhere from an extra hour or two to view the stuff.

Do you charge for that, or some how just do a digital drop and go?

I have a sweet 16 birthday party thing I have to do this weekend,
and it's clear this lady has no way to edit the footage, or even watch it.

At first I thought about transfering it to DV, but that would be exta cost in time, and for tapes, on a budget that she is only paying for the shoot time, if that.

My question is... How do you deal with clients who want to pay for shoot only?



So far, my worst experiences have been with mac people not being able to view the files and it some how becomes my fault, or problem.

On a pC, I can at least give them a free player to view the files, and then it is easier to explain that it it their problem unless they want to pay me to do an edit...
 
why dont you just give her the SD card and ask her if she has a DVD player or TV that can accept SD cards? if not, i would just put it on a thumb drive if it could fit, they are fairly cheap and everyone knows how to work them, and if you are any good at scripting or programing, just have it autorun to open right to the footage with all the clips labeled what they are. idk if that will work for you...but thats just what i would do.
 
nfc565 said:
why dont you just give her the SD card and ask her if she has a DVD player or TV that can accept SD cards? if not, i would just put it on a thumb drive if it could fit, they are fairly cheap and everyone knows how to work them, and if you are any good at scripting or programing, just have it autorun to open right to the footage with all the clips labeled what they are. idk if that will work for you...but thats just what i would do.
Click to expand...

Well in some situations it may be more than one card (2 camera coverage).
That can be costly. If I am dealing with someone who has no idea of playing the footage, it is they who talked your price down to shoot it.
, and will think you should give them the card free.

Most of what I am speaking of is long form, 4 hours or so. That won't fit on a thumb drive.

So far, I have been asking everyone to bring a usb drive.

I don't like giving up the master source footage because in more than half the cases, they end up wanting me to edit it as they can't.

The mac guys that I spoke of in another post, started renaming the footage as soon as i gave it to them. I told them not to do that to the source as they will sooner or later want to call me to edit the footage, or discuss something on file 0023.mts that they named to mac.footage. camera 2.mov

and I will have no idea which file they are talking about.
 
I had a similar situation where the client wanted HD but it wasn't going to be edited right away but they wanted to see the footage right away. My editor suggested to buy a cheap dvd recorder and feed composite out.
 
I would factor in the cost of a small hard drive- $100 should cover a 250GB. Then, along with the clips, include the .exe for VLC player for Mac and PC (or at least a "readme first" that includes instructions on downloading the player and viewing).

A client that has thier own editor will expect raw footage, for some mom having it shot for her kid- you might have to ask when taking the job how they would want to watch the footage and some possible editing work

re: viewing it right away- a reduced rate for "post capture review". You should get paid for it- even if it is reduced.
 
I'd agree with Ed.. and or just get them to buy the 8 gig SD cards and or other stuff. They can use them for all kinds of things. I think it's a simple and easy solution...
 
I am not in the video business. I am in the horse business. We use video in many ways in our business.

We run a very successful operation and we make money. That is the difference between business and a hobby. I don't mean to be critical here, just offer a little advice. If you are a professional and want to make money you have to figure your real costs. Time is money. period.

For instance. If a SDHC card costs you $50.00 to purchase you can't sell it to a customer for the same price. It took you time to order the card or go buy it. Time is money. If must get paid for all your time. If you talk on the phone that is costing you money. A discussion with a client is costing you money. You have to get paid for your time and expertise. If you don't you are a hobbyest not a professional. Of course there are considerations. But you stated you might not get paid for all your shooting time. That is your fault. If you don't get paid for your time don't do the job. It really is that easy.

I majored in business and economics. My passion is training horses but the real world demands I make money to pay my bills and live the life style I like. So I make my passion make me money. This way I can relax and work on my craft and feel good about it and appreciated.

You have to run your business not your clients. Only you can decide what you want to make money wise with your time and talent.

If it doesn't pay to do it don't do it. You might be better off doing nothing than losing money and causing hard feelings. Discuss all things up front and then you can concentrate on being creative.

Just trying to be helpful. I can't offer much in the way of video advice, but I do know how to make money in a service business.

I r
 
Great sentiments there and I follow a lot of that in my dealings with business clients. I let them know upfront that i'm a professional, and I stand behind my work.. but I am here to make money. I don't let them throw stuff in and assume anything. I state my real-time costs and set up quotes based upon hourly, daily rates.. but never flat rates. Flat rate deals usually end up screwing ya since who knows what will happen.


I also keep my correspondence usually in the form of Emails so I can cc them if there are disputes and also it's all in writing. Verbal stuff can get tricky. Another thing is to have them sign off on a completed job so that they don't or can't come back later demanding more work as if it's paid for. I learned that years ago from my friend who's in music... You get them to sign off and say that it's done...


Another big pet peve I have is the consultation.. 99 percent of all people are just phishing for info and want to take up your time. I'm happy to chat for a while with a client.. but sometimes you end up with phone call after phone call.. hours of time and all for speculation. I tend to get to the conulting fee very quickly to see if they are REAL and or if they are just looking to get the milk from this phat cow (ME) for free.

We work in a tough and sometimes sleezy business where people knowingly take advantage of you.. lie to you to get their way.. and or refuse payment and any other manner of crap. I've gotten quite good at getting what I am owed but sometimes it's less than subtle in my methods.. but again, we work in a very odd business.
 
I can't speak to this HMC150-specifically because I don't have one. (Maybe someday if I'm lucky. :D )

But this is something that my company has had to deal with when we started getting into DV, and even more since we lost all the VHS camcorders in the flood last June and are now a DV only operation.

In my experience, 20 years of VHS camcorders--and, more specifically, VHS camcorders with constantly falling prices--have left the average person secure in the knowledge that, if they pay somebody to come and "tape" something for them, they will receive a VHS tape at the end of the day that they can take home and plug into their VCR. Those customers who are slightly more tech-savvy and know of DVD camcorders (particularly from those damn misleading Sony ads a few years back) expect the same thing with a DVD at the end of the day. The fact that even a VHS camcorder could only record two hours, and that a DVD camcorder maxes out at something like a half hour, doesn't even cross their mind. Very few have made the leap to understanding that a lot of us are shooting in formats that they don't have--and may never have--the capability to play back.

So, any time I'm shooting something that can't just go live to a DVD recorder on-site, I make sure the client is aware of two things: that we can only record an hour before changing tapes, and that there will be an additional charge to take what we've recorded and convert it to DVD so they can view it. If they say "No, that's OK, we've got people who can do that," great, no problem, they can take the tape and have fun. If they balk at the $40 or whatever it winds up being, then I guess they call somebody else. (But I know from personal experience that one of those somebody elses charges pretty much the same thing to take a video tape and convert it to DVD--I'd have done it myself but it was Hi-8 and I had no access to a camera :)--so unless they're throwing it in for free when you do the shoot, and I doubt that, that part of the playing field is level.)

You're ahead of the game on one of these issues with longer recording times on the HMC :); but the way I see it, there is no way with the average client that I deal with to do something as "shoot only"--and the HMC's HD-only recording and still-new format are only making that worse for you. And if the client's not willing to pay a little something extra for your time to convert down to SD and put it on a DVD for them, then IMO you're not doing them or yourself any good by going out and shooting it anyway.
 
Another thing to do is have a written explanation of how things are handled. This should explain the different possibilities as to a workflow. Not a contract but something written listing the steps from shoot only and what that includes all the way up to what ever services you offer in post and delivery. A brochure of sorts.

Package A

Package B

Package C.

Then they have it in black and white exactly what is included in the package they pick. No surprises or disappointments after it is over. Makes your life much easier and takes less of your time.

Then they pick the package they want and check the box on the chosen package and sign.
 
when i shoot freelance gigs for this company, they just give me a hard drive and i put all the clips on there and just give them back the hard drive.
 
I've noticed some clients are totally unaware of editing costs, and seem to think it' s bundled into the shooting price. When i point out they may pay more for the post work than the filming, their faces drop. One guy offered me £500 to "shoot" a wedding video.

Fine, i thought. There were some travel expenses and it was a long days work so the price was reasonable.

Who's going to edit it by the way? i enquired.

Er..You are. was the reply.

Hang on, i'm going to end up spending 3 days cutting this thing. By the time i've finished i'll be working for less than a building site laborer. I backed out of course.


The guy with the horse business was right. Time is money. If you want to survive in any business, you have to be firm with clients, and charge them for your time. In fact, this is a good opportunity to make extra cash, particulalry if your a fast editor. Because you can turn the job around in half the time you've charged for.

This may sound dishonest, but the way i look at it is this: I've invested heavily in gear and training for years, and worked for peanuts for much of it. Now i have the skills and the gear (and tax to pay) i can no longer afford to be a soft touch.
 
That doesn't sound dishonest, that is dishonest. If you quote a flat rate then that is fine to do that. But to quote by the hour and charge for more hours than it took is stealing, period.

I agree there is value in your equipment ,experience and expertise and you should charge for that.

Many times I think the video business is a lot like the horse business. It is talent more than equipment that should be compensated for with the big bucks.

So market your talent and charge for it. Many people go with the more expensive person because there is the perception that more expensive is better.
 
Burnandreturn

You misunderstood my point. I don't charge by the hour/day. I charge for the job in the knowledge that the job will probably take longer than expected. So i'd charge 3 days of editing when i figure i can do it in 2 because experience tells me that the client will want to change the music or something, and that there will be extra time costs to get the job finished. This is very often the case.

A friend of mine is a bricklayer. If he's employed on a daily rate he'll charge say £150 per day. If he's working for himself he'l price the job at say £500 or 600 and do it in 2 days. Are you suggesting he's dishonest?

The client is being offered a quote which they can take or leave.

As it happens i just spent an unpaid day's shooting to improve a project i've done for a client. I'm doing the extra editing for free too, because i want this client to be happy and i take pride in doing a job the best i can. In this case, i under-quoted, but that's life.

I used to work for a guy who charged 3 times more to make the kind of corporate stuff i'm now doing. He paid me peanuts and i shot and edited it all. Now i do the deal with the clients and earn more, but i have the headaches and responsibilities of being self-employed.
Another factor is that my editing speed has tripled in the last 10 years, but my rates haven't. Jobs that used to take 3 day's can take me 1 now. Perhaps you'd consider me more honest if i put my feet up and took 3 days to do the job?
 
I believe that the nature of our business is what the client ends up feeling. If he/she is happy with what you did for the price then that's cool. I personally understand some of what you are saying about time vested and time a client expected things to take. I personally have gone to charging a good solid editing rate and not lowering that. I will lower my shooting rate, producing and all of that.. but not my editing rate... as I feel that i'm fast enough to cut something in a day that might take another editor 3 days.


For 5 years I had to do educational videos.. massive content over style pieces with super rediculous turn around times. 30 minute complete videos with graphics and music and text and super smooth and I'd get 72 hours time to put it together as they needed it sooner rather than when they said. My skillset demanded crazy expectations but concrete delivery. It did become a test of wills and I believe that my kungfu training helped with this. Just to shut up my ego and cut cut cut.. This over time translates to a fast efficient editing style.


Sometimes clients will tip you more when you do a job on time and under-budget. It all works out and sometimes we get taken advantage off..
 
What bluekite said is wrong. granted I am not professional in the video business, but I've done many things of all sorts with all different kinds of people. If you lay down a quote and tell them this is how long it takes, and you do it in less than that, give them their money back that you did not use. The way I see it is that's showing responsibility and trustworthiness. That will probably put a smile on their face. You will get more clients back that way. And who knows, they might even give the money right back. And if you're lucky, a tip too. I've had it done before.

And I don't know how you can just take it and not feel bad about it at all. I know I would. I would feel it in my gut until I eventually do give it back. Because to me that IS stealing.
 
Niko18042

" If you lay down a quote and tell them this is how long it takes"

Nobody knows how long it takes. That is precisely my point. If a business bases its quotes on a "best possibe scenario" they will soon flounder. There are also other expenses to take into consideration. The job i'm doing at the moment has already involved 2 meetings including travel expenses, totalling a full unpaid days work.

As far as i'm concerned i want to offer the client a price that is good and fair for both of us. If they don't like it they'll go elsewhere.

And actually, i reset individuals who don't know me implying that i'm a thief simply because they've misinterpreted my words. Let me make this crystal clear for you. I do not steal from my clients or anybody else, but i do factor in all the expenses of a job into the final price that the client can take or leave.
 
The "handoff" of video, I have discovered in the past few months, is a difficult one now. In fact, I try to discourage my clients from going with HD for this reason. I have done both ways, transcoding and uploading footage to my FTP in their preferred format, as well as simply giving them the SDHC card (and charging for both methods).

I would much prefer to handoff the SDHC cards to them (charging $100 for a $30 card), but have to make sure their editor can handle AVCHD.
 
burnandreturn said:
That doesn't sound dishonest, that is dishonest. If you quote a flat rate then that is fine to do that. But to quote by the hour and charge for more hours than it took is stealing, period.

I agree there is value in your equipment ,experience and expertise and you should charge for that.

Many times I think the video business is a lot like the horse business. It is talent more than equipment that should be compensated for with the big bucks.

So market your talent and charge for it. Many people go with the more expensive person because there is the perception that more expensive is better.
Click to expand...
When you take you car to be worked on they charge by the hour. There is a book they go by the book says the job should take four hours they charge you four hours. If they get done in three they still get paid four hours that's just the way it works. Why not for editing? Lots of jobs are charged that way if the worker be painter, brick layer can get it done faster because their good at it thats not dishonest!
 
I have two general kinds of customers....businesses and individuals.

When I deal with individuals, I'm usually working off a very concise package of options. I don't offer any "shoot only" options for individuals. Everything my company shoots, we edit. So far, I haven't lost any potential clients because of this, and most people understand. In fact, due to the nature of turnaround, I even stipulate a very wide range and then further stipulate that nothing can be guaranteed unless in writing (essentially, unless I sign on the contract and specify "2 weeks from shoot" as the delivery time for the edit, there's nothing guaranteed).

I've had some folks who complained along the way...."when is it going to be done?" "is it done yet?" "why does it take so long?"

Ultimately, however, when people see my finished product, they are super pleased and almost apologetic, as they now see what took so long. Even better, if you have a chance to meet with them, you can do a comparison...use charts, graphics, video, whatever...illustrate the production process to them, show them some "before and after" and explain what's required to achieve the final film/video. Unless you tell them, they probably would never know...most individual clients only work with a professional videographer once or twice in their lives and they just don't realize that there's more to it than just taking the footage out of the camera and viewing it. Not that you CAN'T do that, but who wants to watch 3 hours of event footage when a 30-45 minute edited version is so much more enjoyable?

Yeah, a lot of individuals/consumers expect to have something instantly (thank you, digital cameras). Digital photographers at weddings have made it even worse for me, since they can upload the pictures to a website immediately after an event and let a client select their album photos for a wedding or other similar event, turning around a complete project within a week sometimes. So when people try to compare me with a photographer (apples with your oranges, anyone?) I just explain that I effectively took 30 pictures every second the camera was rolling, and that usually helps.

As far as business clients are concerned, we always TRY to keep the edit job, but I'm more willing to hand off footage or work with them any way they need. I always explain that as the shooter, I know the footage better than anyone else, and that generally gets us in the door for editing.

Portable hard drives are cheap, I'd say just get one of the 120/160/250/320 GB western digital passports or something, and put a "property of..." sticker on it with your phone number and all. Explain in your contract that the hard drive must be returned within 7 days or something..."or else..." and then you put a charge of $20 for each add'l day beyond that.

Buy a couple of them and you should have what you need to pass footage around. I think you can even make the drive "read only" so they can copy the footage without messing it up...but maybe that's terribly easy to defeat. Hrm...yeah, probably. :)

Anyway, that's how I work the magic, hope it helps!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top