Slow Mo 720 advice

B

Bobonli

Well-known member
I'm planning my first foray into slo-mo with the EX-1. I understand that it has to be shot in 720. Only some of my scenes will be slo-mo; the rest will be regular 30p or 24p.

I'd like some strategy suggestions. Should I shoot entirely in 720, the slo and regular motion?

Can I shoot some in 720 and others in 1080? I know the camera can do this but how do I conform the two in my NLE (FCS) so I don't end up with crazy-sized frames in the final product? I've never edited in two formats before.

How would you handle this situation?

Thank you.
Bob
 
Jupp, you can mix and match.. atleast in FCP. You can check some of my work at vimeo
http://vimeo.com/3393641

I usaly shoot in 720/24p/60fps and mix the shots with 1080/25p/25fps on a XDCAM1080/24p timeline. Super smooth =)

I recomend shooting at 2x shutterspeed contra your framerate for great results
 
Chris,

Do you just use the Scale function in FCP to make the 720 fit in a 1080 timeline? I would think that the quality would break up because you're zooming in on it. True?

Thanks!
 
FCP will automatically scale to fit. for instance if you bring a 1080 clip into a 720 timeline it will only be around 67% in the motion tab as for the scaling. very nice if you want to do zooms or pans up from that 67% with that extra native resolution to work with.

one thing though...if you plan to use the 720p 60fps for your slow motion clips...***you need to***have them in a ***native 720p 60fps*** timeline to take advantage of the full 60fps. my experience as i recall is that if you take a 720 60fps clip and drop it into a timeline that ***isnt 60fps*** then you wont get the benefit of the extra frames but rather the standard 30 or 24fps.

im on an 8 core 3.0ghz mac and FCP doesnt break a sweat playing back in real time any combination of frame rates what so ever.

i as a rule of thumb try not to use 720 clips in a 1080 timeline since its going above its native resolution. interestingly though, i did some extreme scaling upwards in on some 1080 clips from a live music video i did awhile back. this particular director is notorious for wanting me to zoom/crop in on lots of clips for specific framing. honestly, i was amazed at how well the EX1 clips held together. sure it got a little less pristine but never aquired the horrible jaggy stair stepping that the DVX100a did. i would fight him on this procedure with the old DVX100s but with the EX1, im sure i went up to 150% on quite a bit and even went up to about 200% on another specific clip as i remember. sounds pretty scary doestn it. i still try not to do it much but have to say that the EX1 resolution still held together decently considering. granite this was a country music rockin video which ended up with a vibey look. i dont think it would fly to increase resolution for a more pristine and corporate/classy client type of video.

david
www.davidprobst.com
 
Last edited:
If you read Chris's post carefully you'll see that he is recommending putting 720 footage in a 1080 timeline. Hence my question.

Thanks David. Good to know that XDCAM EX footage holds up well when enlarged.
 
Thanks. So if I understand this correctly, I can take the 720 footage, import it and it will scale automatically.

However, David is suggesting that 720/60 needs its native timeline.

Ok. I'm back to being confused:huh:

I guess I'll just give both methods a shot and see what works.
 
Bobonli said:
Thanks. So if I understand this correctly, I can take the 720 footage, import it and it will scale automatically.

However, David is suggesting that 720/60 needs its native timeline.

Ok. I'm back to being confused:huh:

I guess I'll just give both methods a shot and see what works.
Click to expand...

FIRST: if you want to take advantage of the 60fps *for purposes of using it for slow motion*....then yes, it has to be a native 720p 60fps timeline. if your not worried about using the footage for the creamy slo mo then....NO, it does not need to be in a native 720p 60fps timeline. mix it with anything and all is fine as long as you can live with the "up rezziing" of the smaller file to a 1080 timeline of course.

let me try to explain a little more clearly how 60fps needs to be considered when wanting to take advantage of its potential slo mo abilities...
we all agree that shooting @ 60fps will reap a very creamy SLO MO giving you a FULL 30fps when slowed down to 50% of its native framerate (60fps).

now with that said...in order to get that full benefit it.......*********NEEDS TO BE DROPPED INTO A 720p 60fps TIMELINE*******. i can only speak of FCP though. i would imagine it is the same with other editor though.

SIDE NOTE: when you use the over or under cranking feature in the EX-1 then of course you already have "ready made" creamy slow or speedy fast clip straight out of the EX1 so, the above statement does not apply.

i was very confused when i first got my EX-1 on this scenario. the way i found out was ...i was trying all settings of 720 60, 30 24fps...1080 30, 24 etc. what happened was that i first brought in a clip to FCP that ****WAS NOT 60fps**** BUT rather...a 1080p 30fps clip that i first brought in ***SET FCP to be a 1080 30p timeline. then.....when i brought in the 720p 60fps clips and tried to slow them down they looked just like a clip shot @ 30fps would have looked (meaning just to be clear: shooting @ 30fps slowing down to 50% only gives you 15fps).

because the timeline WAS NOT created and dedicated to take advantage of 60fps. hence....no benefit to the 60fps. it took me awhile to discover what was going on.

i think the best way around this if you want to mix some 720p 60fps (INTENDED TO BE SLOWED DOWN) in with other framerate clips that are either 30 or 24fps would be to ......
ASSUMING your MASTER timeline is native for, lets say 720p 24 or 30fps or 1080 30 or 24fps then you can just simply create your **slow motion** clips ***in another*** completely **seperate** timeline DEDICATED TO 720p 60fps...THEN, slow you clips down to the desired look THEN, ***EXPORT*** them...THEN, RE-IMPORT the *exported already slowed down clip* into your 30 or 24fps timeline and they will be correct as far as the slow motion is concerned. also if you plan to bring them into a 1080p timeline then you might want to size them up in your *slow motion EXPORT* process so when you re-import them into a 1080 timeline for instance....they will come in native which will be less of a drag on a not so powerful computer. i cant speak for other computers but my MACS. my 8 core isnt fazed by any mismatched EX1 file types. both of my kids have G5's Dual 2.0 ghz with decent ram and they are less tolerant of computing some of the things i take for granted on my MacPro.

i hope this makes sense to you. if not email me and ill send you my phone number where i could explain a lot better than trying to write it. if your in the USA or Canada the phone call would be simple.

good luck
david
www.davidprobst.com
 
Last edited:
david_p said:
SIDE NOTE: when you use the over or under cranking feature in the EX-1 then of course you already have "ready made" creamy slow or speedy fast clip straight out of the EX1 so, the above statement does not apply.


good luck
david
www.davidprobst.com
Click to expand...

I apologize for making you type this all out. I was not descriptive enough in my original post! I will be shooting the slo mo in the camera using Slow/Quick Motion feature of the camera. I do not need the NLE to slow it down since it will be that way on the SxS card.

I was primarily concerned with mixing 720 and 1080 on the timeline, which doesn't sound like it's a problem.

Thank goodness this is so much more convenient on the EX-1 in the sense that--time permitting--I could shoot each scene twice (720 and 1080) and then experiement in FC.

Thanks again
Bob
 
david_p said:
FIRST: if you want to take advantage of the 60fps *for purposes of using it for slow motion*....then yes, it has to be a native 720p 60fps timeline. if your not worried about using the footage for the creamy slo mo then....NO, it does not need to be in a native 720p 60fps timeline. mix it with anything and all is fine as long as you can live with the "up rezziing" of the smaller file to a 1080 timeline of course.

let me try to explain a little more clearly how 60fps needs to be considered when wanting to take advantage of its potential slo mo abilities...
we all agree that shooting @ 60fps will reap a very creamy SLO MO giving you a FULL 30fps when slowed down to 50% of its native framerate (60fps).

now with that said...in order to get that full benefit it.......*********NEEDS TO BE DROPPED INTO A 720p 60fps TIMELINE*******. i can only speak of FCP though. i would imagine it is the same with other editor though.

SIDE NOTE: when you use the over or under cranking feature in the EX-1 then of course you already have "ready made" creamy slow or speedy fast clip straight out of the EX1 so, the above statement does not apply.

i was very confused when i first got my EX-1 on this scenario. the way i found out was ...i was trying all settings of 720 60, 30 24fps...1080 30, 24 etc. what happened was that i first brought in a clip to FCP that ****WAS NOT 60fps**** BUT rather...a 1080p 30fps clip that i first brought in ***SET FCP to be a 1080 30p timeline. then.....when i brought in the 720p 60fps clips and tried to slow them down they looked just like a clip shot @ 30fps would have looked (meaning just to be clear: shooting @ 30fps slowing down to 50% only gives you 15fps).

because the timeline WAS NOT created and dedicated to take advantage of 60fps. hence....no benefit to the 60fps. it took me awhile to discover what was going on.

i think the best way around this if you want to mix some 720p 60fps (INTENDED TO BE SLOWED DOWN) in with other framerate clips that are either 30 or 24fps would be to ......
ASSUMING your MASTER timeline is native for, lets say 720p 24 or 30fps or 1080 30 or 24fps then you can just simply create your **slow motion** clips ***in another*** completely **seperate** timeline DEDICATED TO 720p 60fps...THEN, slow you clips down to the desired look THEN, ***EXPORT*** them...THEN, RE-IMPORT the *exported already slowed down clip* into your 30 or 24fps timeline and they will be correct as far as the slow motion is concerned. also if you plan to bring them into a 1080p timeline then you might want to size them up in your *slow motion EXPORT* process so when you re-import them into a 1080 timeline for instance....they will come in native which will be less of a drag on a not so powerful computer. i cant speak for other computers but my MACS. my 8 core isnt fazed by any mismatched EX1 file types. both of my kids have G5's Dual 2.0 ghz with decent ram and they are less tolerant of computing some of the things i take for granted on my MacPro.

i hope this makes sense to you. if not email me and ill send you my phone number where i could explain a lot better than trying to write it. if your in the USA or Canada the phone call would be simple.

good luck
david
www.davidprobst.com
Click to expand...


Huum dont know if I would recommend that.. the pratice in FCP is that the timeline has priority.. when I shoot 24p over 60fps.. the 60fps dont have priority.. however the 24p does. Hence, if you want perfect slowmotion shot in 24p/60fps the timeline has to be set to 24p thats my Apple answer coming from me as a certified trainer ;) You might have found a new way or something i dont know but.. still i´ll have to say stick to either 720/24p timeline or 1080/24p timeline

To answer the other question.. I used the 1080 resolution on the timeline and I dont realy see any diffrence in the footage shot in 1080 or the 720.. ? Cant explain it realy but when i watch the edited timeline on my 1080p 40" LCD i can tell the diffrence between 1080 and 720 clips and then I feel I can use the higher res for as far as possible in the workflow. In my case 65% of everything i produce is ment for web dist in the end and 1080 gives me a higher quality when i encode for that media.

sorry for the crapy english but im hungover like a wolf..
 
Chris@SFP said:
Huum dont know if I would recommend that.. the pratice in FCP is that the timeline has priority.. when I shoot 24p over 60fps.. the 60fps dont have priority.. however the 24p does. Hence, if you want perfect slowmotion shot in 24p/60fps the timeline has to be set to 24p thats my Apple answer coming from me as a certified trainer ;) You might have found a new way or something i dont know but.. still i´ll have to say stick to either 720/24p timeline or 1080/24p timeline

To answer the other question.. I used the 1080 resolution on the timeline and I dont realy see any diffrence in the footage shot in 1080 or the 720.. ? Cant explain it realy but when i watch the edited timeline on my 1080p 40" LCD i can tell the diffrence between 1080 and 720 clips and then I feel I can use the higher res for as far as possible in the workflow. In my case 65% of everything i produce is ment for web dist in the end and 1080 gives me a higher quality when i encode for that media.

sorry for the crapy english but im hungover like a wolf..
Click to expand...

to clarify, i am in full agreement with you that if you plan to work in 24p then the timeline should be dedicated specifically for that 24p. what i am saying though is if you bring a 720p 60fps clip into a timeline that ***isnt*** native 60fps, then you cant successfully get a creamy 30fps from a 50% slowed down clip (command "J" speed adjust to 50%)...my early tests shows that you might as well just be bringing in a clip that was shot at the frame rate of the designated timeliine, losing all benefits of the 60fps. being curious then, are you saying that you can still get creamy slo mo by bringing a 60fps into a 30 or 24 fps timeline? if so, how and what kind of settings are allowing that to happen? i would be happy to find out i am wrong on this point.

i shoot quite a bit of stuff @ 60fps so much of the time 720p 60fps (when planning to do lots of slowed down sequences) becomes the native timeline settings in FCP. with that said, i have never though, seen any oddities by bringing any other resolutions or framerates into a 60fps timeline in FCP. it seems that you have? just curious, what isnt working for you by doing this?

to comment on your second thoughts on resolution differences between 1080 & 720. when in FCP it *is* hard to see a difference in one of the little FCP windows but on a 30" cinema display i can really tell the difference when taking either an exported or raw 1080 vs 720 clip and filliing up the screen. then the 720 is going quite a bit beyond its native resolution and gracefully starts to loose its pristine vibe...although still not a dog IMO.

with that said do you use much 720p slow motion and uprez them to your 1080 timelines? if so, how do you feel about it holdiing up against the much larger native rez of the 1080?

thanks
david
www.davidprobst.com
 
Huum I see.. just to clearyfy so we dont talking around eachother.. your talking about a 720/60p shoot..? Im talking about a 720/24p/60fps.. there is a huuuge diffrent between the two. Your footage plays at "real time" in camera.. with sound? My footage is aprox. 2,5x slower in camera playback with no sound.. I use the S&Q mode to achive this.
 
Chris@SFP said:
Huum I see.. just to clearyfy so we dont talking around eachother.. your talking about a 720/60p shoot..? Im talking about a 720/24p/60fps.. there is a huuuge diffrent between the two. Your footage plays at "real time" in camera.. with sound? My footage is aprox. 2,5x slower in camera playback with no sound.. I use the S&Q mode to achive this.
Click to expand...

yes, we are talking about two different things here. thanks for the clarification.

david
www.davidprobst.com
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top