Working for free or low pay

Interesting Convo:

"Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free."

Business is business. If a business can make money on a product and cut the cost, why not cut it? America was a huge manufacturing mecca. Corps wanted more money, so they changed high paid jobs for lower ones, cut people out, added computers to perform mundane tasks. Their overhead got smaller, yet their prices reamined the same (or went up) i.e. they make more money. The movie business does the same, producers do the same. It's not about a trend, it IS the trend.

"Why buy (pay for skilled labor at $100 an hour) when you can get the (skill or part of it) for free."

And it's driven by the competition of the lower classes. We compete against each other, driving the prices lower and lower. Have you noticed many large companies get together and "set prices." Where Staples, Office Max, Office Depot all have the exact same price on 90% of their items? Or a Coke will cost you the same as a Pepsi?

If all videographers in a region set a price and said "that's it" trust me this wouldn't happen. But there's always someone else maybe a 16 year old or 18 year old in college where $300 a day is a lot of money. So they take it, and buck the system.
 
Ryan Paige said:
I would never advise breaking (U.S.) federal law as a business strategy.

The issue really boils down to a marketing problem. If you can't show and tell potential clients why you're worth more than the kid down the street, then you're always going to be in danger of getting undercut.

...

There's a lot to be said about being proactive when it comes to running a business. Don't wait for the client to come to you, seek out the client and convince him he needs what you have to offer. Get good at that, and you'll be doing jobs that never get advertised on Craigslist because the client didn't know he needed what you were offering until you offered it. Get to that point, and you'll have to worry about your quote a lot less.

If any of that makes any sense at all.
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I agree 100% with you. I'm making the statement. As videography dried up for me, I did what most Americans do. I went into something else. Photography has thrived for us. And one of my friends does very well in videography.

My point is that until people do something like "price fixing", this argument will always be around. It's been around for as long as people have been making money. Those in the middle want their "due" based on experience, education, etc. Those coming up, want to break in - so they'll lower their prices to do so. It's a fact of life - not a new phenomenon. The hurdles that were once set so high (like camera prices) are now getting lower, affording more competiton.
 
Ryan Paige said:
I was under the impression that Ellison was talking about wanting to be paid so that an existing interview could be put on a DVD. People submit to interviews all the time without being paid for it and we don't usually think much of it. Even fewer people would likely be concerned about secondary use of an existing interview. He wouldn't have had to do any additional work, he just had to agree to let the existing footage be used on the DVD.
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OK, then it was my point more than his. His point being more that if THEY are making money using an Ellison interview, then Ellison should get paid too, which I agree with in that instance. He's talking about the value of his interview and his face and his name and his reputation being worth something. The content featured him and content is worth something in addition to writers giving work away for free.

As for the amateurs taking work away from pros, I generally feel sorry for the client in those instances too! But, sometimes, as mentioned, the client doesn't always even require much more than crap anyway so it's still paying work that might be offered to a hungry amateur rather than a pro trying to pay the bills and buy better gear.

.
 
Zak, great idea. Thanks for sharing.

Here's another perspective: The Grateful Dead are an example of successful marketing that some have attributed in part to their bootlegging policies. How can giving away music for free be good practice for a band. I don't understand all of the economics or know every detail involved but the bottom line is that it worked. They put their live music into the hands of people that would not have normally heard it in a grassroots kind of way, creating extraordinary demand for tickets and merchandise.

Was that unfair for the other bands, undercutting their potential profits? Some would argue "Yes" and some "No". I am not a fan of the Grateful Dead's music or the sub-culture they perpetuated, but their marketing was undeniably successful.

Nowadays 'viral marketing' plays a role in the overnight success of a few people, products and services. Everyone of us could probably think of some cheap youtube video that mysteriously became a phenomena. I read that the Snuggie (that annoying product with its annoying commercial) is doing very, very well and critics say it is almost exclusively because of its cheesy marketing message. To be honest, I would feel embarrassed to put that commercial on my reel, until that is, it became very successful.

This topic also reminds me of the 'commercial contests' - Doritos, Heinz...etc. Why don't more filmmakers feel taken advantage of by these contests? Those companies offer the mirage of success and receive hundreds and sometimes thousands of submissions (how much would it have cost in real man-hours and equipment rental to produce all of those videos?). Do many filmmakers see benefits from their submissions? Maybe a handful. Just think of all of the potential profit the big companies receive simply from the exposure of hundreds of filmmakers all advertising their products for free.

I do not fully agree with the way every company and individual chooses to market their products and services, and yet I think some of these methods are pure genius. Reminds me of Tom Sawyer.


Jason
 
This is a very interesting discussion and I've learned a lot about the business...
But how do those of us that are hobbyists fit in? Are we hurting your business?

I started with an 8mm camcorder years ago for family stuff...didn't use it much. Picked up a single chip panasonic in '05 and discovered NLE editing after a vacation.
Picked up a Pany GS250 in '06 and started taking it to the track with me...(I drag race motorcycles as my other hobby).
Got a separate mic, a decent tripod and took videos of the race weekends. Bought Sony Vegas and started posting 10 minute race weekend recaps on-line for the other racers...
At the end of the season, just for fun, I put all 5 of the weekends on a DVD and took a stack to the series banquet...
Sold 40 copies at $10.00 each...(with the promoters permission).
OK...yada, yada, yada...sorry for the long back story.

The point is the promoters asked me to make the "official" series DVD the following year...
They were disappointed with the "Pro" they hired and offered me the same deal they offered him...$500.00 flat fee, plus $5.00 per DVD produced.

So I did it because...I'm at the track anyway. I had just bought a used GL2. I enjoy shooting video and editing.

Did I make any money? Not really. I bought a wireless mic, upgraded my computer, upgraded to Vegas Pro, bought Sonic Fire Pro and music, bought DVD cases, printer ink, etc.
Aside from shooting and editing, I designed, compiled, burned and printed 50 DVDs, plus case inserts. Sold 40, so $700 total...for a 50 minute DVD...

Was it perfect, NO! But it was what the customer wanted and I learned a ton...
I know I'm nowhere near as good as you guys and gals, I'm sure.
I've done some video challenges, simple shorts...I read, read and practice...And I love this stuff.

Now I've got a new cam, (HMCV150), and hope to shoot another motorcycle racing DVD....and maybe make a few bucks for some more equipment.
Got an idea about doing short promo videos for racers looking for sponsors...

I'm not trying to make money, I'm 52, have a good job and do OK...I mostly have fun and if I make money its only to buy more stuff...

So...I am hurting everyone else's business? I hope not.
But there is no doubt, technology has made video production far more pedestrian than it was 10-15 years ago...

Later,
 
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well heres the thing...

when youre 25-30 and just getting settled in your career as a DOP/videographer etc... you are definitly going to get competition from 18 year old in college to whom 300$ was alot of money. but if youre smart, and set your client base high, there comes a point where your clientel, dont bother with the 18 year olds and like working with you. (also helps when you are very friendly). at this point i make a living with 6-7 repeat clients. one is a commercial production house, one is a advertising ajency, another is a group of music video directors, and then i have my AC work for tim naylor and a couple other higher end DOP's. i work my ass off, im friendly, and i respect my own time, and so do my clients. i am rarely nickle and dimed because they know: a: i wont stand for it, b: they get what they pay for. dedication to the job and an affinity for high quality work.

eventually, when i get better, i will take on even higher end clients, and start teaching what i know to a young up and coming DOP one day... and by teaching i mean strike fear into the heart of... hehe..... cant wait.
 
Capt Quirk said:
That is what annoys me the most out of the cheap bastards. It isn't bad enough they are getting slave labor, but then have the gall to expect more. "That's great, but could you just..." Even low paid jobs deserve some respect for the time already put in, to ask for more above and beyond, is seriously rude. Time is time, and a quote is for a one time job. If you want things changed last minute, you pay the last minute prices in addition to the original quote, or you do it yourself.
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Well, depending on how all freelancers work varies. I always sign contracts with my client no matter if its a free job or a paying job. If its a free job, I make sure to put language in the contract saying I can work on it any time I want and that the client cannot impose a deadline because it is free work.

I actually did have one client come back to me a month later with a short film he wanted edited. I gave him my price for editing and said I was too high. I told him that it may be high, but I would get the job done. He said he would get an "up and coming person" to do it instead. A month later, he called me back and said he would pay for the editing. His "up and coming person" had flaked on him.

At least when money is involved, you can demand a deadline and such. With free jobs or "up and coming people" you are taking a huge gamble.
 
Carlos Corral said:
Well, depending on how all freelancers work varies. I always sign contracts with my client no matter if its a free job or a paying job. If its a free job, I make sure to put language in the contract saying I can work on it any time I want and that the client cannot impose a deadline because it is free work.

I actually did have one client come back to me a month later with a short film he wanted edited. I gave him my price for editing and said I was too high. I told him that it may be high, but I would get the job done. He said he would get an "up and coming person" to do it instead. A month later, he called me back and said he would pay for the editing. His "up and coming person" had flaked on him.

At least when money is involved, you can demand a deadline and such. With free jobs or "up and coming people" you are taking a huge gamble.
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Exactly, that's just the facts. That's why there will always be room for professionals. Any of us who have made our own films know that sometimes, you have to take a risk on people with more enthusiasm than experience, when your pay isn't very good, but if I'm doing a project for a corporation with strict deadlines and that company is paying me well, do you think I'm going to jeopardize my reputation by hiring some inexperienced DP to save a few bucks? HECK no, I'm going to lock down a true professional and make sure he's happy so that he treats my project seriously and works within my deadlines. I don't want the stress of cheaping out and trying to save a few bucks, rather than paying more to get true professionals and sleep easy at night knowing they are reliable people.

Whenever your pay sucks, you can't really blame people for being a bit flaky. I personally wouldn't flake on something I agreed to do, no matter the pay, because my word is always good, but I can understand that not everyone is in the same situation or position as me, so if they're staring at $1,200 in their bank account and worried about rent next month, gas, food, etc., and a better job comes along, it's hard for me to judge them TOO harshly for flaking on my project. I'm unhappy about it, yes, I don't think it's right, but I have to understand it from their perspective a bit.

Pay professional rates, get professional work. If your pay is poor, you could still have great work done, you may just get lucky and find a professional who is bored and likes your project, or you may find an up-and-comer who really is good and you are pleasantly surprised. But the point is if the work is critical, it must be done well and must be done on time, is that a risk you want to take? It's not one I'll take, I'd much rather overpay if that's what I have to do so that I know I'm going to finish the project and make my client happy.
 
basspig said:
I.. Until property taxes adjust to the new world order/third world economy, there are going to be a lot of tax foreclosures accompanying these reduced wages.... martial law ... economy collapses totally... banksters and the Bilderburgers .... NWO.
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Thou I share many of your apprehensions, you shoud stop reading whatreallyhappened.com - it´s bad for your blood pressure levels :)

Frank
 
puredrifting said:
I give up, what is a Bilderburger?

Dan
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The group is frequently accused of secretive and nefarious world plots by groups such as the John Birch Society.[11] This thinking has progressively found acceptance within both elements of the populist movement and fringe politics. [12] Radio host Alex Jones claims the group intends to dissolve the sovereignty of the United States and other countries into a supra-national structure called the North American Union, similar to the European Union.
Jonathan Duffy, writing in BBC News Online Magazine states "No reporters are invited in and while confidential minutes of meetings are taken, names are not noted... In the void created by such aloofness, an extraordinary conspiracy theory has grown up around the group that alleges the fate of the world is largely decided by Bilderberg."[13]
 
Baatfam said:
But there is no doubt, technology has made video production far more pedestrian than it was 10-15 years ago...

Later,
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Not sure I totally agree. The majority of stuff shot is pedestrian, and people are becoming more accustomed to crap, so they accept crap.

A quality, professionally produced / shot / edited piece is not something someone can do simply because camcorders are cheaper these days.
 
Not totally sure I can totally agree with you either Noel. Out of all the people on the street, X number will actually have a natural talent, but might not be able to pursue it because the tools are out of their price range. Now that the prices are coming down, more people have access to them, Sure, out of all those people, there will be a huge amount of crap. But amongst the crap, there is surely to be a few diamonds in the rough. Given time and practice, these rank amateurs might be able to produce a piece that could rival a seasoned Pro. Take the raw talent that can be found shooting movies here. Some of the stuff is better than what you would see out of Hollywood, they just couldn't polish it as well as a huge budget could.
 
A huge part of this problem is the 'acceptance factor'--today's clients lack the formal education and expectations of those a generation or two ago.
 
Capt Quirk said:
Not totally sure I can totally agree with you either Noel. Out of all the people on the street, X number will actually have a natural talent, but might not be able to pursue it because the tools are out of their price range.
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I dont agree with this at all!

I cant afford a RED, but i still work with it al the time.... people that can make a pretty picture are hired for that reason. not becaus they have 50,000$ lying around to buy a red package....

Ive worked with every HD cam under the sun... I own 1 of them. hvx200. How often do i use my HVX nowadays.... maybe once a month? The rest of the projects are on rented F900, Varicams and RED. Noone cares what adapter i have now a days.... or what camera i own....

The price of the tools doesnt matter if there isnt a person that can use it to begin with.
 
basspig said:
A huge part of this problem is the 'acceptance factor'--today's clients lack the formal education and expectations of those a generation or two ago.
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Alot of folks have NO idea how difficult and costly, film/video production is. They think you just show up with a camera....

Alot of clients are surprised when we show up with HMI's, Grip equipment and dolley track, and build them a video village. They see the set and think... thats SO big and so bright! but they look at it on the monitor and they ususaly oh... "wow, that looks so.... good. What cmaera are you using?" ( i hate that.... like the crew has nothign to do with the image... its all camera... Pssht.... )
 
TimurCivan said:
They see the set and think... thats SO big and so bright! but they look at it on the monitor and they ususaly oh... "wow, that looks so.... good. What cmaera are you using?" ( i hate that.... like the crew has nothign to do with the image... its all camera... Pssht.... )
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hahahaha...if i had a dollar for everytime somebdy asked "wow, what kind of camera is that?" as if they're gonna know once i tell them the model anyway. :beer:
 
TimurCivan said:
I dont agree with this at all!

I cant afford a RED, but i still work with it al the time.... people that can make a pretty picture are hired for that reason. not becaus they have 50,000$ lying around to buy a red package....
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It is nice to know you not only have a Red close by that you can rent, but also the $400 a day they charge for it. I don't have either. I'm sure that there are others in a similar situation, only they are using a second- or third hand camera they got cheap. My point is, outside of the video circle, how many friends have a video camera to loan? It isn't like a car, where everyone has one. A lot of times, it comes down to either a car or a camera. Remember, we aren't talking about video Pros, just average people with an interest.
 
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