"We appreciate your continued correspondence. . . "

L

Lee Wilson

Veteran
Here is my farcical email to-and-fro with Canon with regard to the claims of professional depth of field control for the Canon 5DmkII made in their Canon 5DmkII White Paper.

Don't bother reading if you are easily frustrated or you might expire. :zombie_smiley:

(emails are generally spaced a day or so apart unless otherwise indicated).

If you can't be bothered reading the whole lot (and I don't blame you) let me sum it up like this:


Canon: the 5DmkII has the kind of DOF control found only on professional video cameras.

Customer: What is this DOF control ?

Canon: you have to walk towards or away from your subject or reframe your shot (swap the lens or zoom).

Customer: Do you consider that to be the kind of DOF control found on only professional video cameras ?

Canon: Having to physically move the camera or adjust the focal length is simply the way the camera works.

Customer: Do you consider that to be the kind of DOF control found on only professional video cameras ?

Canon: we are sorry we cannot answer that question.

Customer: Then will you at least confirm that you state in your promotional literature that "the 5DmkII has the kind of DOF control found only on professional video cameras." and that you also explain this proffesional DOF control as "you have to walk towards or away from your subject or reframe your shot (swap the lens or zoom)."? - Can you confirm that these two statements are correct ? A simple yes or no will do.

Canon: The answer cannot be made[sic] by a simple yes or no.

Customer: Can you simply confirm these two statements are correct, yes or no ?

Canon: "we do not have any other answers for you regarding the EOS 5D Mark II."



--------------------------------------------------------



Anyhow here come the emails . . . .


To Canon

. . . . . . . . . . .


To whom it may concern.

We recently bought the new Canon 5D mkII specifically for the advertised video functionality and to replace our Canon HV20 and HV30 camcorders. We were sufficiently impressed with samples we had seen and the features outlined in your 'Canon 5DmkII WHITE PAPER' to decide on the camera.

But I must say I was somewhat disappointed to find that the video mode has been entirely automated with only an auto-exposure lock and an exposure compensation dial to brighten or darken the image. What this dial controls (aperture / ISO / shutter speed) is not under the user's control and varies depending on what the camera selects.

Simply put, the user has no control over what aperture is chosen when in video mode, the camera meters the scene and makes a selection for you - removing creative choice and - crucially - removing control over your depth-of-field.

This seems to negate the claims made by Canon.

Please take a look at this extract from the Canon 5D mkII WHITE PAPER: (page 6)

>>". . . photographers and videographers can capture high definition video with **depth-of-field control found only in professional video models**—using much more affordable Canon EF lenses including fisheye, ultra-wide, and image stabilized lenses."<<

It clearly makes the claim that not only does the camera offer control over the depth-of-field, but such that it can be compared with the kind of control normally exclusive to 'professional video models'.

The thing is - that without control over aperture, there is no control over the depth of field, not just that the control is less than 'professional', but that there is none whatsoever.

The WHITE PAPER concludes (on the final page) with the same claim:

>>"Alternatively, professional videographers will be drawn to the EOS 5D Mark II’s unique depth of field control"<<

This once again unambiguously makes the claim that there is control over the depth-of-field, indeed - to a level that would be of interest to 'professional videographers' rather than the actual reality of the situation which is: no control at all over depth-of-field.

For the moment we have followed the lead of many technical savvy videographers we have spoken to online, and are planning to buy Nikon lenses (with a Nikon to EOS adaptor) as these lenses have a manual aperture ring and allow full control over depth of field.

This a less than ideal solution as features such as auto-focus, Image stabilization and metering are lost, but at the end of the day it is the depth of field that a large sensor and 35mm lenses offer that is this camera's real draw and less so these other features (something your marketing people are aware of, if not entirely accurate in their promotion).

So . . . .

This leads me to a question:

Is there a firmware update planned that will address this limitation ?








Thanks for taking the time to read this rather long letter.

All the best

XXXXXXXXX (me)


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Last edited:
Response from Canon

. . . . . . . . . . .


Dear XXXXXXXX (me)

Thank you for writing to us with your feedback. We appreciate you
taking the time to share your comments with us regarding the EOS 5D Mark
II.

The exposure compensation setting will tell the camera to adjust the
exposure, not exactly whether it should adjust the aperture or ISO
speed. The camera will vary the aperture and ISO speed automatically
based on what it determines is best. Unfortunately, we do not have any
information regarding future versions of the firmware for your EOS 5D
Mark II.

We have forwarded your comments to Canon USA through our Customer
Feedback process. This process allows us to capture important feedback
from our valued customers. As we constantly strive to improve our
products and services, your comments are vital to our continued success.

For important product updates, including available drivers and product
notifications, please visit Canon's Web site at
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer.

Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance with the EOS
5D Mark II.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

XXXXXXX
Technical Support Representative


. . . . . . . . . . .
 
My reply to Canon


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Hi XXXXXXX

Thank you for your quick response.

You say:

> The exposure compensation setting will tell the camera to adjust the
> exposure, not exactly whether it should adjust the aperture or ISO
> speed. The camera will vary the aperture and ISO speed automatically
> based on what it determines is best.

I am aware of this, in fact it's the very thing I am pointing out !! (You missed shutter speed out of the equation, it is also another unknown that compounds the issue.)

Can I conclude from this reply that the claim of depth-of-field control (indeed, professionally so) in the Canon 5D mkII WHITE PAPER is incorrect and in reality there is no depth-of-field control ?

All the best.

XXXXXXX (me)


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Canon's reply


. . . . . . . . . . . .


Dear XXXXXXX (me)

We appreciate your continued correspondence regarding the EOS 5D Mark
II.

We are sorry for any confusion, but what is stated in the White Papers
for the EOS 5D Mark II and the surrounding details is only describing
the fact that the EOS 5D Mark II has a much greater ability to control
the depth of field by using certain lenses because of the nature of an
SLR camera, which is far greater than most HD camcorders are capable of.
The aperture itself is controlled by the camera directly and it is not
intended to imply that the aperture can be manually controlled by the
user. Once again, we apologize for any confusion this caused.

Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance with the EOS
5D Mark II.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

XXXXXXX
Technical Support Representative


. . . . . . . . . . . .
 
My reply to Canon


. . . . . . . . . . . .


Hi XXXXXXX

Once again I must say I appreciate your prompt response, most large companies are notoriously slow when dealing with customers enquires online, it is refreshing to see company as large as Canon deal so swiftly with it's customer's issues.

Back to the point at hand, if I read your response correctly it appears to be saying that a (D)SLR will give you a greater depth-of-field than most HD camcorders.

I do not disagree with that, it is axiomatic if we consider the size of the 5D's sensor compared to a typical HD camcorder.

But my question is about the claims for 'control' of depth-of-field. You say that the 5D mkII has "a much greater ability to control the depth of field by using certain lenses". To be clear: imagine I have a person framed against a suitable background (let us imagine some trees for instance) - now let's imagine that the camera chooses a relatively high f stop (necessarily negating a shallow depth-of-field) how would you suggest I proceed to achieve a shallow depth-of-field, to utilise the 'greater ability to control the depth of field' that the 5D has ?

Any help greatly appreciated.


XXXXXXX (me)


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Canon's reply


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


Dear XXXXXXXXXX

We appreciate your continued correspondence regarding the EOS 5D Mark
II.

If it becomes necessary for the camera to choose an aperture that will
actually widen the depth-of-field instead of making in more shallow,
there is no setting on the camera that would allow you to manually
override that decision and choose a wide aperture for shallow
depth-of-field. The information in the White Papers is saying that
because this is an EOS camera and you have a wide selection of lenses to
choose from, you can use a lens that would normally provide extremely
shallow depth-of-field because it has such a wide maximum aperture, such
as the EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM lens. Using such a lens will give the
camera a better range of control of the depth-of-field, but does not
ensure that it will be able to use the widest aperture at all times.

Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance with the EOS
5D Mark II.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

XXXXXXXXXXX
Technical Support Representative


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 
My reply to Canon


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hi XXXXXXXX

You say:

> If it becomes necessary for the camera to choose an aperture that will
> actually widen the depth-of-field instead of making in more shallow,
> there is no setting on the camera that would allow you to manually
> override that decision and choose a wide aperture for shallow
> depth-of-field.

Would you agree with me when I say that by this answer we are saying that the 5D mkII offers no user control over the depth-of-field ?

You also say:

> you can use a lens that would normally provide extremely shallow
> depth-of-field because it has such a wide maximum aperture.

But the 5D mkII will not allow you to select this maximum aperture, simply put lens choice will not offer *"extremely shallow depth-of-field because it has such a wide maximum aperture"* because the choice of aperture is not predicated on the maximum aperture but what the camera has metered.

Here is a simple question to illustrate my point:

I am shooting a scene and my camera has decided on f11, I am using a f4 lens, but would like a shallower depth-of-field.

So I take off this lens and replace it with an f1.2, what would you suppose the camera will now choose as it's f stop ? . . .

. . . Of course the question is largely rhetorical, as we both know the amount of light hitting the sensor (at f11) has not changed and this is what the camera will choose - f11 - just like it choose f11 on the f4 lens because aperture choice is predicated on the metering system not on what lens you have chosen. So not only will lens choice not give you any *control* over depth-of-field, it will not even give you a *shallower* depth-of-field in the same situation as a slower lens.

So, and apologies for being so persistent, where might I look to find the *'depth-of-field control [of the kind] found only in professional video models'* ? I genuinely cannot see any depth-of-field control at all, even with your suggestion that it might come through lens choice, which we can show to be erroneous.

Set up a scene, the camera chooses f11 - you cannot alter this - swap the lens from an f4 to a faster f1.2 - reframe the scene - result the camera chooses f11 - you cannot alter this.

Where here is the control over depth-of-field ? How should I proceed to lower the depth-of-field, or is there simply no control over the depth-of-field ?



All the best

XXXXXXX (me).

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 
Response from Canon.


. . . . . . . . . . . .

Dear XXXXXXXXX (me)

We appreciate your continued correspondence regarding your EOS 5D Mark
II.

If you need depth of field control, then the Aperture [value] priority
[Av] mode would be the best choice. It would allow you to lock in any
aperture, and thereby depth of field, that you want. The EOS 5D Mark II
certainly has complete user control, as do most DSLR cameras. We
apologize for any inconvenience this causes you at this time.

We hope this information is helpful to you. Please let us know if we
can be of any further assistance with your EOS 5D Mark II.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

XXX
Technical Support Representative

. . . . . . . . . . . .
 
my reply to Canon


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


XXX (new support staff member, not the previous one I have been talking to).

Thanks for your reply.

Would it be possible to continue my correspondence with XXXXXXX ? I feel I was getting somewhere - even if it was only an admission of the 5D mkII's lack of depth-of-field control for videographers - but now I feel I am being taken back to step 1 of this conversation.

For clarity:

I am making an unambiguous enquiry with regard to the promised depth-of-field control - advertised in the Canon 5D mkII WHITE PAPER for videographers.

Aperture priority mode has no bearing on the settings used in video mode, you can change the aperture to what you wish, these settings will not be honoured in the video mode.

If you are suggesting this is the case, I would suggest a brief familiarization with the camera, if you are referring to still photography mode I suggest a brief familiarization with the context of my enquiry.

You say:

> "The EOS 5D Mark II
> certainly has complete user control"

It is all very well making this claim in your correspondence, promotional literature and publications, but we need also to see this as a demonstrable fact by having it enabled it in the camera itself.

Again, in case you have not taken the time to read my enquiry in full, I am talking about the video mode.



So, can I get you to agree to the following statement:

The 5D mkII offers no control over depth-of-field for videographers.


If you do not agree to this statement and continue to follow the theme of the promotional literature . . .

> "Alternatively, professional videographers will be drawn to the EOS 5D Mark II’s unique depth of field control"

> "photographers and videographers can capture high definition video with **depth-of-field control found only in professional video models"

. . . can you then explain how the 5D mkII user can control the depth-of-filed when in video mode ?



Your help is much appreciated.


XXXXXX (me)


. . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 
Canon's reply

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


Dear XXXXXXXX (me)

We appreciate your continued correspondence regarding your 5D Mark II.

My apologies I was writing in reference to using the 5D Mark II as a
still camera, not a video camera. The movie mode is essentially
operating in Program mode and you no control of either aperture or
shutter speed. This is regardless of which mode the camera is set to
for still shooting.

Exposure control is limited to the exposure compensation function of the
camera and you may also use exposure lock. With the EOS 5D Mark II,
depth of field in movie mode can be effectively controlled by adjusting
camera to subject distance and lens focal length. To increase depth of
field in movie mode, move away from the subject and/or reduce the focal
length of the lens. To reduce depth of field in movie mode, move closer
to the subject and/or increase the focal length of the lens.

We hope this information is helpful to you. Please let us know if we
can be of any further assistance with your 5D Mark II.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

XXX
Technical Support Representative


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 
my reply toCanon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . .


Hi XXX

You say:

> With the EOS 5D Mark II,
> depth of field in movie mode can be effectively controlled by adjusting
> camera to subject distance and lens focal length. To increase depth of
> field in movie mode, move away from the subject and/or reduce the focal
> length of the lens. To reduce depth of field in movie mode, move closer
> to the subject and/or increase the focal length of the lens.

This is not the 5D mkII offering you control over depth of field, this is you (the user) controlling depth of field by walking towards or walking away from your subject, to suggest that this control is facilitated by the camera itself is nothing short of sophistry !

You can of course do this with any camera or camcorder, this technique could not be in any way considered a feature of the 5D mkII, as it is separate, outside the camera, indeed nothing to do with the camera. As this technique can be done with any camera should we now consider that any and all cameras have "depth-of-field control found only in professional video models" ?

For clarity: being able to walk away from or towards a subject is not a feature of the camera.

Would you say that that this is the kind of control over depth-of-field found on professional video cameras ?




XXXX (me)


. . . . . . . . . .
 
Canon's reply


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


Dear XXXXXXXX (me)

We appreciate your continued correspondence regarding your EOS 5D Mark
II.

We very much apologize that the EOS 5D Mark II isn't working the way you
expected it would. The EOS 5D Mark II is a DSLR that offers HD
shooting, if it doesn't work in the manner that you require, then you
may want to consider simply shooting with a camcorder. I wish that I
could offer you more information on this issue that would satisfy your
inquiries.

I have forwarded your comments to Canon USA through our Customer
Feedback process regarding the functions of the camera. This process
allows us to capture important feedback from our valued customers. As
we constantly strive to improve our products and services, your comments
are vital to our continued success.

For important product updates, including available drivers and product
notifications, please visit Canon's Web site at
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer.

We hope this information is helpful to you. Please let us know if we
can be of any further assistance with your EOS 5D Mark II.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

XXXX
Technical Support Representative


. . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 
my reply to Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


Hi XXX

You say:

> "We very much apologize that the EOS 5D Mark II isn't working the way you
> expected it would."


My expectations are predicated on how I am told the camera will function by Canon.

My complaint is not that the 5D mkII does not function the way I expected it to, my complaint is that it does not function the way that is suggested in your promotional literature.

It clearly, and more than once, promotes the idea that the 5D mkII has 'amazing' and 'professional' depth-of-field control:

**". . . videographers can capture high definition video with depth-of-field control found only in professional video models . . ."**

**". . . The EOS 5D Mark II . . . provides amazing depth-of-field control . . ."**

**". . . and none that had the depth-of-field control found in the EOS 5D Mark II . . ."**

I am saying that it has no such thing, not that the depth-of-field control is not 'amazing' or not 'professional', but that it is non-existent.


You go on to say:

> "I wish that I could offer you more information on
> this issue that would satisfy your inquiries."

Could you then answer my questions ? I will try the same question once more in the hope that it might be answered.

Q: Would you say that having to walk towards or away from your subject is the sort of depth-of-field control found in professional video cameras ?

Or would you consider this a 'work around' for a camera that lacks a means to control the aperture ?





All the best


XXXXXXXXX (me)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 
Canon's response

(we are now back to the first support staff member)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .



Dear XXXXXXXXX

We appreciate your continued correspondence regarding the EOS 5D Mark
II.

To control the depth of field, changing the distance between you and the
subject, or changing the focal length being used is recommended. These
are the only means at your own control for changing the depth of field.
The aperture cannot be manually changed, as it is only automatically set
by the camera.

Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance with the EOS
5D Mark II.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

XXXXXXXXX
Technical Support Representative


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 
my reply to Canon


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


Hi XXXXXXXX


I have been told this once already, I have responded to this suggestion already, so I hope you don't mind if I reprise the theme of what I wrote previously.

You say:

> To control the depth of field, changing the distance between you and the
> subject, or changing the focal length being used is recommended. These
> are the only means at your own control for changing the depth of field.

Taking into account the claims put forward in the promotional literature:

**". . . videographers can capture high definition video with depth-of-field control found only in professional video models . . ."**

**". . . The EOS 5D Mark II . . . provides amazing depth-of-field control . . ."**

**". . . and none that had the depth-of-field control found in the EOS 5D Mark II . . ."**


Q: Would you say that walking towards or away from your subject could be considered the kind of depth-of-field control found in professional video cameras? (Or would you consider this a 'work around' for a camera that lacks a means to control the aperture ?)

Q: Would you say that walking towards or away from your subject could be considered a *feature* of the 5D mkII ?

You can of course do this with any camera or camcorder, should we now consider that any and all cameras have "depth-of-field control found only in professional video models" ?

Once again I apologise for being so persistent, but if my questions are ignored again I will simply keep repeating them in the hope that they will be answered, I hope you do not consider this an unreasonable position to take.


All the best,


XXXXX (me)




. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 
Canon's reply


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


Dear XXXXXXXXXXXXX (me)

My name is XXXX and I am the Online Support Coordinator for Email
Support here at Canon ITS. Your email was forwarded to me for a reply.

I have looked over the answers provided by our technicians, and the
information provided is correct. We do apologize if there has been any
confusion regarding the video feature of the EOS 5D Mark II, but the
depth of field does function as stated by the technicians. While the
EOS 5D Mark II is able to capture very high quality video, it is still
primarily a still image camera. Because of this, depth of field cannot
be changed during shooting in any other way but the manual moving on the
lens or camera towards or away from the subject.

Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

XXXXXX
Online Support Coordinator

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 
My reply to Canon


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


Hi XXXXXXX (I am now dealing with the third support staff member.)

Thank you for your reply, I have two very simple questions that I have asked three times now and each time they seem to be side stepped ?


Q: Would you say that walking towards or away from your subject could be considered the kind of depth-of-field control found in professional video cameras? (Or would you consider this a 'work around' for a camera that lacks a means to control the aperture ?)

Q: Would you say that walking towards or away from your subject could be considered a *feature* of the 5D mkII ?


Once again I apologise for being so persistent, but if my questions are ignored again I will simply keep repeating them in the hope that they will be answered, I hope you do not consider this an unreasonable position to take.



Thank you


XXXXXXX (me)



. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 
Canon's reply


. . . . . . . . . . . . . .


Dear XXXXXXXXX (me)

We appreciate your continued correspondence.

The EOS 5D Mark II is capable of very fine depth of field control.
However, since the camera is primarily a still-image camera, it is not
able to automatically change aperture or focal length during an
exposure. If this is absolutely required for a particular video shoot,
then you would need to either move the camera or adjust the focal length
of the lens manually. This is simply the way that the camera operates.

I do apologize if this does not answer you questions as you have them
written, but it is the information that we have available to us.

Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

XXXXXXXXXX
Online Support Coordinator


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 
my reply to Canon

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


Hi XXXXX

Could you please answer my questions ?

Q: Would you say that walking towards or away from your subject could be considered the kind of depth-of-field control found in professional video cameras? (Or would you consider this a 'work around' for a camera that lacks a means to control the aperture ?)

Q: Would you say that walking towards or away from your subject could be considered a *feature* of the 5D mkII ?


All the best.


XXXXX (me)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 
Canon's reply

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


Dear XXXXXXXX (me)

We appreciate your continued correspondence.

The video quality of the EOS 5D Mark II is certainly equal to that of a
HD camcorder. However, as I have previously stated, this model is
primarily a still camera and aperture and focal length cannot be
automatically changed during an exposure.

The control mentioned in the document ion for the EOS 5D Mark II is due
to the range of EF lenses available it the EOS camera system. As noted
in the White Paper for the EOS 5D Mark II:

Depth of field at any given aperture increases as focal length
decreases, so for most focal length positions on a typical HD camcorder,
it's nearly impossible to blur background elements when shooting a
portrait or closeup. On the other hand, even an EF 50mm f/1.4 USM lens
mounted on an EOS 5D Mark II will provide narrower depth of field at all
apertures compared to the fully zoomed-in focal length on most
camcorders. And few video cameras in existence can match the narrow
depth of field of Canon’s EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM lens used by many
top-end portrait shooters. Because of these unique video recording
traits and the versatility provided by Canon’s EF lens system, the EOS
5D Mark II should be as attractive to serious videographers as it is to
advanced and professional still photographers.

If this does not answer you inquiry fully, I would recommend contacting
Canon's Corporate Office, and they should be able to further assist you:

CANON U.S.A. Inc.
One Canon Plaza
Lake Success, NY. 11042

Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

XXXXXX
Online Support Coordinator


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