From HVX200 to the EX1?

David_Tanner

David_Tanner

Member
Hello, I realise the HVX vs EX is a popular topic but Id like to get a little more specific.
Me and a friend have been using a HVX200 for a while now and the more we continue to use it and the more HVX footage we view the more one thing haunts us. The noise levels.
Now I realise all camera's display a certain amount of grain or noise in their image but HVX's dances about in such prominent way that I find it highly unlikely that even the most 'techincal - side' ignorant auidence will be oblivious to it.

Now Ive been told the noise is less obvious when the blacks are pressed, crushed in post etc and for the most part this is true...in the blacks. Problem is noise is still all over the midtones.
With that I am also told that the HVX produces less noise when the subject is well lit. Which again is true, however what about the parts of the image that you want to be slightly darker to create contrast?
Do I have to evenly light my subjects and create a flat, boring image in order for it to be useable.

From what I have seen the EX1 not only peforms better in low light, in make less noise in low light. Hell it makes less noise in good light.
Even if it was total crap in low light and could barley see a thing it would still make less noise.
So Im looking into 'upgrading' to an EX1

Some of the cons mentioned when looking at the Ex1 are things such as the image looking more Video-ish and the rolling shutter artifacts being a problem.

Now, the image looking more like Video-ish; what are your thoughts on this?
From what I have seen the image the EX1 produces is less colorfull however this seems okay to me as the HVX seems somewhat too colorfull and I find the skintones always need desaturating a bit to make them more realistic.

It also looks a little too sharp to be film, I agree - surley this could be improved upon by turning down the softness or by using a soft lens filter?

See, I think when people say this they mean the camera, set to its default's, creates a less filimic looking image than the HVX but I see certain fine tuning of settings and post color correction only bringing it up on par with the HVX. Even the RED ONE camera's creators admit their cameras create an image that is made to be color corrected.

The Rolling shutter artifacts however are really bullying me into not buying this camera.

I need serious help here folks x
 
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David,

This has been discussed to death.

ALL cams are noisy in poor light, even 35mm. Light your blacks at a level that eliminates noise, and light everything else accordingly.

Yes the EX1 is sharper. Yes the 1/2" sensors are better in low light. Yes, the stock settings make the video look "videoish". Yes, the EX1 has ranges of settings the HVX can't get near. Yes, you can set the softness to give you the blurrier look if you prefer. I rather do that in post, but that's me.

Yes, the rolling shutter effects are real, just like they are on the RED. Work inside the paramters and it's not an issue.

As for the "colorful" comment, that's just bunk. Either camera can put you well off scopes on every axis. The difference is that the EX1, will actually let you correct each axis in the menu and not just saturation.

Rent an EX1 or borrow one. There are tons uot there now. Shoot it side by side with the HVX and see what you get. I've done it, and I know what I saw.
 
Thanks for your comments PerroneFord; even if they did come across slightly obnoxious, they are needless to say, helpfull.

PerroneFord said:
ALL cams are noisy in poor light, even 35mm. Light your blacks at a level that eliminates noise, and light everything else accordingly.
Click to expand...

This may seem seem like an obvious approach that we may have overlooked but it is something that we always try to do. The HVX is so noisey that, in practice it means setting exposure for the midtones, rather than the highlights.
It means lighting our shadowish/darker areas and perhaps even midtones on the skin up by about 60% which doesn't really leave us much room for nice highlights and thus- creating a moody, contrasting image.

Yes renting a EX1 would be perfect, however we live in a location of the UK where I would have considerably higher chance of renting john lennon's oven mitts.
 
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Talking about john lennons oven mits, that guy phoned me back and said theres more chance of us renting a Ex1 so i dunno dude.

Lighting blacks to eliminate noise just simply is not the most ideal method. Has anyone got any footage that looks more like film(as opposed to video) than the Hvx200, i have yet to see such footage. Iv seen great looking footage sharp looking stuff but nothing as close to film as the hvx,
 
Say for instance, that film the ghost hour or w/e that looked as close to film as you could get with any cam in this price range, if the noise was not as extreme as it was it would of been great looking footage,

as for that trailer, it looks better on youtube as apposed to there hi res version they have on there website, must be the compression. i havent really seen any rolling shutter issues with the ex1, can you post a link with the problem.
 
Apologies. It's just that I've seen this conversation devolve into nasty politics and closed threads so many times, I'm always wary when it comes up again.

The original HVX is very noisy, there's no two ways about it. The update is quite a bit better from what I've seen.

Unfortunately, no one is going to be able to tell you if the rolling shutter is going to be problematic in your shooting. You really do have to try it out and see. And I'm sorry if they seem to be rare in your area. There's just no way over the internet to tell you how it will work for you.

Most of my shots tend to be on the tripod, and occasionally on my FigRig, but I've not had rolling shutter issues. Other people have returned their cameras because it just wasn't feasible for them. Still others have had issues breaking the codec and have gone to off-board recording with a better codec.

I wish I could be of more help, and maybe there is someone in your area with an EX1 who could loan you one for a day.

-P

David_Tanner said:
Thanks for your comments PerroneFord; even if they did come across slightly obnoxious, they are needless to say, helpfull.



This may seem seem like an obvious approach that we may have overlooked but it is something that we always try to do. The HVX is so noisey that, in practice it means setting exposure for the midtones, rather than the highlights.
It means lighting our shadowish/darker areas and perhaps even midtones on the skin up by about 60% which doesn't really leave us much room for nice highlights and thus- creating a moody, contrasting image.

Yes renting a EX1 would be perfect, however we live in a location of the UK where I would have considerably higher chance of renting john lennon's oven mitts.
Click to expand...
 
quick two cents - sell the HVX and buy the EX1.
you can tweak it in post to look just like the HVX- only better.
 
PerroneFord said:
Apologies. It's just that I've seen this conversation devolve into nasty politics and closed threads so many times, I'm always wary when it comes up again.
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I understand, I dont expect any video camera it to look 'filmic' out of the box and was looking into specific pros and cons. Which is why I thought I deserved my own thread. Aside from the fact Im a straight up attention whore. :beer:

PerroneFord said:
Others have had issues breaking the codec and have gone to off-board recording with a better codec.
Click to expand...
This is really interesting, will have to look into it.

Bokes said:
quick two cents - sell the HVX and buy the EX1.
you can tweak it in post to look just like the HVX- only better.
Click to expand...

Okay, see that is kinda my logic at the moment - 'I can make it look like 'CINE -D' in post with a slight alteration to the color curves, easily. What I cant change is the amount of dancing noise!'

:dankk2: for the debate yall'
 
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ChristianScott said:
that trailer, it looks better on youtube as apposed to there hi res version they have on there website, must be the compression.
Click to expand...

Thats why I said earlier, give or take some softening or diffusion. I think Sony set the default detail level too high on their camera's to please the HD punters. It looks just as the HVX would set to +7 detail level. Detail level usually means the level of artifical image enchancement and looks ugly. You can turn it down or use one of these http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ssx40e6Jrts

ChristianScott said:
can you post a link with the problem.
Click to expand...

I did earlier buddy. There is a video of its effects with flickering light if you look to the bottom of the page.

http://dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/
 
I did read that shutter thing, but i have yet to read other users round here complaining about it, and on video hosting sites for that to be an issue to me.

I think maybe a little bit more research is nessersary however i think one thing is certain, we do need to sell the HVX.
 
i rent the ex1 for my short film. i really liked it. i was wondering if i was going with panasonic or sony. i had the dvx100 and it'S a delight. i know sony was doing the same thing. low light , better resolution. more time on the card. my only problem that i found was it's freaking heavy with a letus35fe. the way the camera hold itself it's pure crap . after a while you find a touch to grab it in a confy way. that was my only problem. now i can make full blue ray DVD . the quality is very good. of course you have to light your shot to create a film look. i didn't see any different between both 24p. i like the sony. it's cheap to rent. here's some grab of my new short called Kalore.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=160730

it was with the letus except the ballroom scene.
 
Don`t know, but in my eyes the Youtube-Kerberos trailer does in some shots look to me videoish! Something in the movements and especially the colors - I think there is better EX1 footage out there to show how filmic the EX1 can be. Maybe it`s the compression?

I would not step up from HVX to EX - not in 2009, because there are cameras hitting the market, which are a muh bigger step up. Just my 2Cents.
 
I'd wait until NAB before I buy anything.

Any rumors of a EX-1a coming out? An improved version.
 
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ChipG said:
I'd wait until NAB before I buy anything.

Any rumors of a EX-1a coming out? An improved version.
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What would they improve? Codec isn't changing, glass isn't changing. I'm sure they are not redesigning the body. Can't think of anything else to change at the price point.
 
Bertholt4 said:
Don`t know, but in my eyes the Youtube-Kerberos trailer does in some shots look to me videoish! Something in the movements and especially the colors - I think there is better EX1 footage out there to show how filmic the EX1 can be. Maybe it`s the compression?
Click to expand...

Which ex1 footage did you consider to be more filmic ?

anyway this is all kinda moot as it depends whos hands these cameras are in. you can always add noise to ex1 footage but you cant remove it =[
 
PerroneFord said:
What would they improve? Codec isn't changing, glass isn't changing. I'm sure they are not redesigning the body. Can't think of anything else to change at the price point.
Click to expand...

I heard something about a sensor upgrade that has less of a rolling shutter effect. Just rumors, will wait and see.
 
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