Gran Torino -- the old Clint Eastwood is back!
- Thread starter Batutta
- Start date
I think I can guess what you saw as the great message in this movie.
But this is the message I got: "White racist man is the only one who can save the hapless bad Asian actors from themselves, revealing that white racist guys are truly just awesome Americans underneath...so we shouldn't really take their racist verbal attacks so seriously. In fact, these racists are more like Jesus in disguise. So let's give them a big hug instead."
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Batutta
Major Contributor
I think that's a gross superficial reading of what the film was about. What I saw was a racist guy who based his feelings on nothing but xenophobia, and when he truly got to know the people discovered they were more honorable, hard working and selfless than people of his own race (specifically his children), and more deserving of his respect.
Michael Anthony Horrigan
More Cowbell Pictures
I don't think so.
Exactly! His WHITE kids came off really badly in this film. Even the other white kid who was walking home with her came off as a complete coward.
He didn't sugar coat much of anything in this movie and he let just about everyone have it.
MAH
Exactly. I found the film grossly superficial, without a very smart understanding of the mixed messages under the sledge-hammer it tried to use to say "racism is bad." I still think it glorifies that type of guy. Clint nailed the character. I just wish the writing and directing had delivered the story with more nuance and intelligence. I'm not the only one who came out and had this mixed reaction to the weird messages of the film. Many people are finding it problematic. For example, as written in the Huffington Post article...by an Asian guy:
SPOILERS!!!!!
"The Big White Dude saves the Little Yellow Dude not through violence, but through pacifism and sacrifice. He martyrs himself for the Little Yellow Dude (conveniently, the Big White Dude's also terminally ill, just so the audience, I suspect, doesn't think he's a total death-wishing lunatic). Just in case you missed that point, the Big White Dude is pumped full of bullets in the end, and falls dead to the ground in a crucifixion shape, his body, like Christ's, riddled with holes. And, you know, I gotta problem with that. Is this a movie or is this missionary work? Because I don't need to be converted. I don't need to be saved. I don't need to be shown the Way, the Truth, and the Life by another White Savior, thank you very much, amen. "
In the end, Clint's character reminds me of these interviews on the street the BBC did after Prince Harry said some pretty appalling racist things caught on tape, and some old white British dude says "I think the media is blowing the comments all out of proportion." Clint's movie sorta says the same thing--that saying such things isn't really that important, because underneath this guy is really a good person. Right up to the end he's using the worst racist epithets they can conjure up. I think it all feels like it was written and directed by a high school student assigned to do a project on racism.
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Batutta
Major Contributor
I think you're missing the point that Clint's character is changed by the circumstances and gets past his prejudices to embrace these people...Also, I was a minority growing up in a very white suburb, and I learned early on that there is a difference between true racism, and juvenile teasing that is just about putting people down. I had brown skin and an afro, so that was my target. But that is different than actively supressing other people from enjoying the freedoms that every one is entitled to through violence or abuse of power. Clint's racism in this film is just a more caustic form of juvenile teasing. If you notice, he didn't treat his white friend the Barber any better. His is the sort of casual prejudice you'll find everywhere, that when confronted with reality, as Clint is in this film, is easily broken down...I think the film is far from perfect (bad acting, and an ending one can see a mile away), but I think calling the film an endorsement of racist behavior is entirely missing the point. The film is told from Clint's point of view. He undergoes the change toward acceptance. Yes, it's another story about a white man saving someone of another race, but it was made by white people and let's face it, FOR white people, so it's only fair to judge the story on what it was trying to do, not what it SHOULD do.
Michael Anthony Horrigan
More Cowbell Pictures
I find that review completely absurd. It's like I watched a completely different movie. :huh:
Billy Pilgrim
Stye in my eye
I thought this movie was kind of silly. But very entertaining.
I totally do get the point of the movie--or at least the point it so artlessly hammers home. Yes, the intended point is painfully obvious. It's the unintended point I don't like as much.
I'm curious, do you think the racist banter between the barber and Walt is acceptable? I mean, if it wasn't Clint (a hero) and wasn't a movie, and you heard people talking that way, what would be your reaction?
If you say it's a bad thing, well, that isn't what the movie is saying. The movie--that scene especially--says it's actually cute and funny and that's how American men talk. Especially heroes. Even Sue, the Asian girl, just giggles when Walt calls her a gook. It's weird.
If you say that kind of conversation is a good thing, or it doesn't matter, especially as a visible minority, then...I guess as a less visible minority I don't agree. I don't think it's funny in real life or cute.
(This is NOT to say that Walt's character can't be a funny racist, as we laugh at how out of touch he is. That is not what I'm saying. Walt did make me laugh! I'm saying the message behind a lot of the scenes and the movie itself is really out of touch too. Walt was a great character. The movie just missed the ball at almost every swing, and ends up reinforcing a lot of the damaging ideas that it's trying to dispel.)
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Batutta
Major Contributor
I actually have a friend, a female comedian, who grew up on the streets of Philly in gangs and says racist things constantly. I just shake my head because I know none of it is real racism, it's just juvenille put downs, and she always treats me and other individuals with respect. But if some anonymous Asian person cuts her off in traffic, you'll hear the foulest stream of racial epithets you've ever heard...I personally find it heroic that Clint was able to overcome his superficial prejudices to embrace this family in the end. Again, you are acting like his character in the film is static, and that WE come to understand him, but it is HE who understands them and changes.
Let me say that I would like to rewrite this scene:
When Walt "rescues" Sue from the evil black gang members about to gang rape her, Walt tells her to get in the truck. She has the good sense to do so, and then as Clint drives her away, and tells her that he thought gooks had more sense than that, well, I'd write it so that Sue went ballistic on him. She should melt down and try to claw his damn eyes out. She's just come out of a situation where her life was basically threatened. A racist situation, and she gets in the truck with this total a-hole and he calls her more racist things, and I think she should lose it. The way it's written, she smiles and giggles at it. Where does he even have the need to change his racism when he still treats her that way and she doesn't mind, and we the audience laugh.
And as a character, he's already "changed" by this point. Like an After School Special, all he needed was to have a bar-b-que with the Asians and he sees they're totally cool gooks after all. So what's the rest of the movie about?
And I don't think your comedienne friend is cool shouting racist slurs in traffic either.
When Walt "rescues" Sue from the evil black gang members about to gang rape her, Walt tells her to get in the truck. She has the good sense to do so, and then as Clint drives her away, and tells her that he thought gooks had more sense than that, well, I'd write it so that Sue went ballistic on him. She should melt down and try to claw his damn eyes out. She's just come out of a situation where her life was basically threatened. A racist situation, and she gets in the truck with this total a-hole and he calls her more racist things, and I think she should lose it. The way it's written, she smiles and giggles at it. Where does he even have the need to change his racism when he still treats her that way and she doesn't mind, and we the audience laugh.
And as a character, he's already "changed" by this point. Like an After School Special, all he needed was to have a bar-b-que with the Asians and he sees they're totally cool gooks after all. So what's the rest of the movie about?
And I don't think your comedienne friend is cool shouting racist slurs in traffic either.
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Batutta
Major Contributor
Did I say she was cool because of it?...All I'm saying is her flaws aren't worth pushing her away for, as I know she's a decent person at heart. She just had an upbringing that's ingrained that language and those attitudes into her. She tries to behave herself but in certain situations it comes out...Anyway, this is the problem I have with political correctness. It assumes that words themselves are inherently bad, when it's the intent and actions behind the people saying them that really matters. Clint's words in this film may be racist, but his actions are not, and isn't that what really counts?...And I actually find the way the scene with the girl as written is more believable than the way you'd write it. He did just SAVE HER FROM BEING RAPED, so I think she'd give him some leeway! If he was a real racist he would have left her to the wolves.
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ESTEBEVERDE
Veteran
How?
You are so presumptive to know me or to pretend to know the slightest thing on this Earth about my Cultural Perspective or Ethnicity?
I think there is a word that can be used for that... stereotyping.
Glad that you gave it a little thought and I do appreciate that's the message you "got".
I would still say again:
"Great Movie!....great message that has great meaning to both the affected communities and the community at large."
To expand for your edification:
The affected community was two fold.
First the "White" Flighters who left because of economic depression and recession and to a much lesser degree as a knee jerk reaction to desegregation.
Second the Hmong immigrants and their first and second generation American children.
The Greater Community was everyone else collectively.
1. I would argue that on the whole it was the Hmong neighbors who saved and brought meaning back to Walt Kowalski. Not the other way around.
The hospitality that the other neighbors and their family and friends showed Walt went a long way to this end as well. Let's call them Yum Yum et al if you will.
2. I don't think Walt Kowalski was racist so much as a crotchety old bigot. Big difference however subtle it might be.
3. If you watched the film attentively you would see that the older generation was portrayed as being loyal to the values of hard work, freedom and responsibility, and that the younger female generation was following along the same route. By contrast the younger male generation in large part was indeed portrayed as being in disarray and statistically likely to be aimless and not engaged in constructive behavior. In fact, they were portrayed as being headed down the path of self destruction and taking those in their communities with them. This was Universal across all the Ethnicities within the larger Community as a whole.
4. Walt was an antihero while Sue Lor was actually a text book classic heroine. Her brother Thao Vang Lor was the conflicted lost soul on a quest who eventually becomes a hero.
5. The "racial" ribbing that Walt gives Barber Martin shows that this is nothing more than playing the dozens and that it is not an absolute sign of hostile racism. This same phenomenon is more than evident in places like the Hamakua Coast on the Big Island of Hawai'i where nary a "Whitey" even be.
It is racial but not so much racist.
6. Walt and his neighbors fall in love.
7. Grandmother is portrayed as every bit as tough as Walt and then some.
8. .....
I'll stop with the enumerating here as there is already so much for you to consider and digest.
I will say in summary by way of a brief recap that this story is a Love story between neighbors and friends and is a tale centered on how a community comes together to appreciate one another and take control of their destinies.
On one level these are two very divergent cultures blending and becoming a mosaic. There will of course be natural frictions and the fact that both cultures/ethnicities have a tradition of being strong and just a weeee bit outspoken will almost definitely ensure this is the case.
But both cultures are also very generous and kind and loyal.
It is in the end where Walt realizes these are the people he loves and he wants to have as "his" neighbors in their (collective) neighborhood.
He knows that if he kills the Hmong gangbangers that the violence will only beget more violence.
He comes to terms with this and concludes that his only true option is that of self sacrifice. He gives his life so that the gangbangers are doomed to years in prison and will no longer be able to harm Toad or his family.
He loves Toad so much he does this and bequeaths to him his most prized possession. The Gran Torino.
It is now as if Toad were his own son.
A bit more complicated than your knee jerk assessment but fairly simple to understand all the same.
I hope I did not come off as condescending (that's talking down to you).
I merely wanted to clarify the matter a bit and this was indeed the perfect opportunity to revisit the issue.
From Your Truest of Friends,
With My Sincerest and Warmest Regards,
Estebe
ESTEBEVERDE
Veteran
Estebe, I don't get your reaction at all. How could I stereotype you when I have no idea who you are, what your background is, whether you're male or female or intersex, straight, gay, Muslim or Atheist? We've never met and we're not Facebook friends.
As you never actually said what meaning you got from Gran Torino, then I could only say "I think I know what meaning you got." That is, it was my best guess that you took the main meaning Eastwood intended: an old racist guy learns that his anger and racism are wrong and he can atone for something he did in his past, etc. Clint would be happy to know that's pretty much the meaning Battuta got too.
The thing is, I got a different meaning. Or at least a mixed meaning, as someone else also expressed in The Huffington Post. Sort of how you seem to have taken a different meaning from one of my posts than I intended. Sort of demonstrating how ideas can have unwanted consequences, and why I have my reaction to some of the unintended themes in the movie. What I hoped to do was make some people think about this movie a little bit in the way I saw it, whether it convinces them or not. And because I love talking about movies, good and bad. Let me clarify this: the meaning I got from it is NOT what Clint thought I would get--for me, Clint screwed up big time and actually did some things so that the movie had the opposite effect he was going for.
There are more people you can add to your angry list in this Slash Film podcast here. I just listened, and they also had a similar reaction to the movie as I did. It's possible--dare I say POSSIBLE--that the film is a bit divisive. That we all won't see it the same way or like it equally.
Oh, and I think those IndieWire film snobs put Gran Torino on their 10 Worst Films of the Year list, so I have no idea what you'll do to them. I'll warn them you're coming.
P.S. What's weird is, despite my disappointment and serious misgivings about the film, I did like parts of Gran Torino a lot. Especially Clint's performance.
As you never actually said what meaning you got from Gran Torino, then I could only say "I think I know what meaning you got." That is, it was my best guess that you took the main meaning Eastwood intended: an old racist guy learns that his anger and racism are wrong and he can atone for something he did in his past, etc. Clint would be happy to know that's pretty much the meaning Battuta got too.
The thing is, I got a different meaning. Or at least a mixed meaning, as someone else also expressed in The Huffington Post. Sort of how you seem to have taken a different meaning from one of my posts than I intended. Sort of demonstrating how ideas can have unwanted consequences, and why I have my reaction to some of the unintended themes in the movie. What I hoped to do was make some people think about this movie a little bit in the way I saw it, whether it convinces them or not. And because I love talking about movies, good and bad. Let me clarify this: the meaning I got from it is NOT what Clint thought I would get--for me, Clint screwed up big time and actually did some things so that the movie had the opposite effect he was going for.
There are more people you can add to your angry list in this Slash Film podcast here. I just listened, and they also had a similar reaction to the movie as I did. It's possible--dare I say POSSIBLE--that the film is a bit divisive. That we all won't see it the same way or like it equally.
Oh, and I think those IndieWire film snobs put Gran Torino on their 10 Worst Films of the Year list, so I have no idea what you'll do to them. I'll warn them you're coming.
P.S. What's weird is, despite my disappointment and serious misgivings about the film, I did like parts of Gran Torino a lot. Especially Clint's performance.
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