Sex scene for opening scene ?

[Will Clegg]

Another film that opens with a sex scene that is important to the characters and the plot is "Before the Devil Knows You're Dead." I think that's a great example of a sex scene that alienates some more conservative audiences but is absolutely critical to the development of the story.

 

[Nektonic]

I say if you think it is either appropriate or necessary then do it, ha ha. Seriously though, include the sex scene if it feels right. You can always change it later as well, so why not try it out now and see how a couple of your trusted readers or DVXUSER members feel about it once they read the script?

Some Hollywood readers might be turned off but then look at how many successful action films start with an action scene. I'm sure not all readers are action junkies and can be turned off by that as well.

 

[David W. Richardson]

I think a previous poster was right -- you need to consider who your target audience is. If it's women, that demographic is more likely to be turned off by a gratuitous sex scene.

An idea struck me for an opening scene that would convey the necessary info, and be moving as well....

Open on the woman. She's in the bathroom. In her hand is one of those pregnancy test dipsticks. She's pacing nervously, looking at her watch, waiting for the results. Done the right way, the audience will think she's hoping and praying that she's NOT pregnant. This is a very common scene in movies.

Time's up. She looks at the dipstick. Focus on the dipstick -- it shows a minus sign. She's not pregnant.

Cut back to the woman, staring at the dipstick for a long moment. Then......tears roll down her cheeks and a look of intense sadness comes over her face. This is the moment when the audience realizes she WANTED to be pregnant.

She drops the stick into the trash can. In the can are numerous other sticks, all with the minus sign.

She opens the bathroom door. Her husband is waiting for her on the other side. He looks up at her hopefully -- but the look in her eyes tells him the results. He is crushed. He takes his wife into his arms and holds her as she sobs.

Is this better than a sex scene? I don't know. Maybe yes, maybe no. It's just another approach. For what it's worth.

 

[brianluce]

I think a previous poster was right -- you need to consider who your target audience is. If it's women, that demographic is more likely to be turned off by a gratuitous sex scene.

.

It's not gratuitous if it's a movie dealing with conception.

Anyway, Chapelgrove, your suggested scene is boring, I'd rather watch a movie with a couple going at it like a couple of farm animals. Barking and grunting and stuff.

 

[David W. Richardson]

It's not gratuitous if it's a movie dealing with conception.

Anyway, Chapelgrove, your suggested scene is boring, I'd rather watch a movie with a couple going at it like a couple of farm animals. Barking and grunting and stuff.

Boring for you. Boring for the general female demographic? Maybe not.

It's gratuitous if it's unnecessary. Movies have been made about Adam and Eve, as well as Lady Godiva, that didn't have on-screen nudity. Simply because a movie is about conception doesn't necessarily justify a sex scene.

What I'm saying is it's not automatically NOT gratuitous just because the movie is about conception.

And we don't even really know that the movie IS about conception. All we know is that there is an element in the story that involves a husband and wife trying to have a child. This could only be a sub-plot. The husband (or wife) could be a cop trying to catch a serial killer.

 

[David W. Richardson]

And I'm going to disagree with you on this. If the wife has her legs straight up in the air, checking her watch and her temperature during sex, that is a classic "I'm trying all the tricks in the book to get pregnant" thing. Prior to that, she should have checked her calender for her optimum days. Or, if you show her poking pin holes in all of his condoms prior to sex, that would also cement the scenario. It's all in how you approach the scene.

I'm not sure how what you said is disagreeing with me. All I said was a sex scene isn't necessary in a movie about trying to have a baby. I assume you're not saying that a movie about trying to have a baby can't be made without a sex scene. Right?

 

[David W. Richardson]

If sex isn't related to conception then nothing is.

I don't think there's a real question here. Obviously sex scenes work and catch interest -- it's such a strong visual situation that it does NOT need to serve the story directly. The real question is how do you write a sex scene and then how do you film it?

I'd like to share a scene from one of my scripts with a sex scene. Here goes:

INT. BEDROOM -- MORNING

They make love.

Sex is certainly related to conception. That's not the question. The question is whether or not a sex scene will attract or alienate a large segment of the target audience. If the target audience is young males the scene will likely be better received than if the target audience is 30s-40s females.

A sex scene is only "strong" and "visual" in a positive way to a certain audience demographic -- largely males. It can easily be a very NEGATIVE thing to a female demographic. This is something the writer needs to consider.

This is not to say that many women can't accept, and even appreciate, a romantic scene in a movie. But generally they have to be very invested in the characters first. Many of them may be put off by such a scene thrown at them in the very beginning of a movie, but may be more accepting of the same kind of scene at a later point, when they've warmed to the characters involved.

These are just things for the writer to think about. He should weigh all the pros and cons, and then proceed in his own best judgement.

 

[Yeddi]

It's not gratuitous if it's a movie dealing with conception.

It that would depend on *how* it is dealing with conception.

Is it a comedy or a drama? What's the movie about? Is it a quest type movie, the goal being the baby, where the story is really about the journey? Or is it a story about the character's relationship? Who's the protagonist? The man or the woman? The answers to these questions change everything.

Anyway, Chapelgrove, your suggested scene is boring, I'd rather watch a movie with a couple going at it like a couple of farm animals. Barking and grunting and stuff

Seeing as RO hasn't answered the above questions, that statement just shows that you have a limited point of view and not thinking about story. The above type questions must be answered so that anyone could really give specific advice.

Chapel's suggestion may be a better fit if were a drama, with a female protagonist and it's about her want to have a baby. If that was the type of movie it was meant to be, then I'm intrigued.

But, if the movie is about a male protagonist and his dislike that sex has now become simply about procreation, then Chapel's scene obviously doesn't fit and would seem silly.

If it is a male comedy scenario though, I still think the sex scene would be better placed at around the page 10 change after an introduction of what his feelings might be able the arrangement, as it would make the scene more funny because the *audience* would then know what might be going on in his mind, rather than just the writer who already intimately knows the character. Knocked up is a good example of this time of movie, and it doesn't start with a sex scene, although it is in the first 10 pages, but it's knowing the guys attitude towards sex that makes that sex scene particularly funny. If I was to see them going at it straight off the bat I would have just thought the guy was a slob and wouldn't have been as sympathetic towards him.

Basic instinct uses sex at the first scene because that is what the movie is about - seduction, both mental and physical. The Tudors (which is a tv series so it would only be the first ep. that people wouldn't be emotionally invested in the characters) follows the same theme. Completely different kettle of fish in relation to RO's question.

A movie about conception, no matter what the genre, is about life, responsibility, perhaps even functionality - you can't apply the some thinking to it as you would to a seduction themed movie, no matter what your own personal tastes are.

The whole if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a freakin' duck, so treat it like a duck not an elephant.

There isn't a rule about sex scenes that can be applied as a standard to all movies, it depends upon story. The idea of conception is not enough to apply a definitive answer.

RO if you gave us your logline, and actually let us know what your movie is about so that we can specifically answer the question it would help. Otherwise this thread will divert into people's own personal tastes about sex scenes in movies in general (which in itself is silly as I have pointed out it depends upon the story) and have nothing to do with your story whatsoever which is why you asked the question in the first place.

 

[brianluce]

. The question is whether or not a sex scene will attract or alienate a large segment of the target audience. If the target audience is young males the scene will likely be better received than if the target audience is 30s-40s females.

A sex scene is only "strong" and "visual" in a positive way to a certain audience demographic -- largely males. It can easily be a very NEGATIVE thing to a female demographic. This is something the writer needs to consider.

.

This can easily be construed as a sexist statement. I know feminists that would rip you for it. You're throwing out a big net and then parsing about what 30-40 y/o women like and don't like. I think your general view of women is unevolved, patronizing, and puritanical. Lucky for you this place is a total geek techno nerd dude ranch.

 

[David W. Richardson]

This can easily be construed as a sexist statement. I know feminists that would rip you for it. You're throwing out a big net and then parsing about what 30-40 y/o women like and don't like. I think your general view of women is unevolved, patronizing, and puritanical. Lucky for you this place is a total geek techno nerd dude ranch.

This is why I say things like "likely" and "can easily be". Of course there are women who would accept a sex scene in much the same way many (not all) men would. But as a GROUP, characteristically, 30s-40s women TEND to not be AS enamored of sex scenes and nudity as their male counterparts.

I have not stated a 'general view of women'. And your comment borders on being personally insulting.

 

[alex whitmer]

you could have the lady do an at-home pregnancy test and have it positive, and when she exits the bath, she punches the sky with victory fists and the couple embraces, or ...

Have it negative, and when she exits she gives a thumbs down. He makes some comment about 'let's try again' and they tumble onto the bed - and cut!

Point made without the gratuitous sex.

This is the opening scene for We Own the Night (after BW montage). yeah, it can work if it really belongs in the story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0gpHvWvxoM

alex

 

[Nektonic]

total geek techno nerd dude ranch.

Maybe this should be a subtitle below the DVXUSER logo at the top of the forum.

As writers we all wish we could answer these kinds of "what will the audience accept or what will they like" type of questions. I think that a lot of the time it is sort of a no win situation when we get into them. These questions can become something that will paralyze the writer if they cause them to obsess over something that is really out of their control. Sure we may have an idea of what will work or what an audience will like, but I believe that we have to write for ourselves first, and audiences second.

If the writer puts the sex scene in because they want to or because it feels appropriate then yes, some of the audience MIGHT be turned off. On the other hand, what if the sex scene is the better opening, yet the writer backs down because they are afraid of turning the audience away?

I stress the word might because we really don't know. Each story is different and if the writer is in tune with their characters and plot then that writer will know what is necessary and what is not for their script. Once they've written it and sent it to their trusted readers then they can start to gauge whether something like a sex scene for an opening works for their story or if it is just fluff.

The same thing with films once they are released. A film can come out one summer and tank, but if it had come out a year before or a year later it might have done really well. Again, to quote William Goldman, "nowbody knows anything" -- in reference to Hollywood and the film business in general.

 

[brianluce]

This is why I say things like "likely" and "can easily be". Of course there are women who would accept a sex scene in much the same way many (not all) men would. But as a GROUP, characteristically, 30s-40s women TEND to not be AS enamored of sex scenes and nudity as their male counterparts.

I have not stated a 'general view of women'. And your comment borders on being personally insulting.

Do you have any specific evidence to support this generalization? You should have evidence otherwise it's a statement that demeans women.

You obviously don't know the women I know.

 

[David W. Richardson]

Maybe this should be a subtitle below the DVXUSER logo at the top of the forum.

As writers we all wish we could answer these kinds of "what will the audience accept or what will they like" type of questions. I think that a lot of the time it is sort of a no win situation when we get into them. These questions can become something that will paralyze the writer because they will cause them to obsess over something that is really out of their control.

If the writer puts the sex scene in because they want to or because it feels appropriate then yes, some of the audience MIGHT be turned off. On the other hand, what if the sex scene is the better opening, yet the writer backs down because they are afraid of turning the audience away?

I stress the word might because we really don't know. Each story is different and if the writer is in tune with their characters and plot then that writer will know what is necessary and what is not for their script. Once they've written it and sent it to a their trusted readers then they can start to gauge whether something like a sex scene for an opening works for their story or if it is just fluff.

The same thing with films once they are released. A film can come out one summer and tank, but if it had come out a year before or a year later it might have done really well. Again, to quote William Goldman, "nowbody knows anything" -- in reference to Hollywood and the film business in general.

It's true. Many variables can impact the success of a film or a script. All we're doing here is discussing possibilities.

If a writer is writing a script out of a desire to create a work of art -- or just as a creative outlet for himself -- then he should write whatever he feels he wants to write. But if the goal is to sell the script, then it's important to consider elements that may attract or repel your target audience. There's tons of market research done all the time for just that reason.

Any writer writing any script with the goal of selling it would be wise to seriously study the tastes and sensibilities of his target audience. That doesn't mean he can't bend the rules here and there. Only that he needs to decide what's best for the sellability of his script.

 

[Nektonic]

You're right chapel, when conceptualizing (pun intended) the story and plot then yes, I agree that it is a good idea to figure out what genre, audience, budget, and market your script will fall into.

I just feel that once the actual writing commences, especially on the first draft, that if we limit ourselves and second guess things then we are inviting writer's block. Maybe it is just me, but I like to feel free when I write the first draft. It is easier to take out a scene that doesn't work and rewrite or replace it with a new one than to get all worked up and paranoid about a sex scene. Even if it is the opening scene that needs to be rewritten then it is much easier to do that than have to rework the plot or other such problems that the doubt that can rear up over the sex scene.

Sometimes writing the scenes that don't make the final draft are some of the most informative forays into the lives and minds of our characters. So there can be value in writing something that might not be completely commercially acceptable by the mainstream.

Also, the suggestions that you and others submitted for alternative opening scenes in place of the sex scene sound pretty good, and those were with having no real knowledge of the plot or even a logline. It shouldn't be too hard for Randall to rewrite the opening if needed in a later draft.

Not to say that my viewpoint is the right one, but just that it is what works for me. I feel that any method that gets me writing and helps get that first draft down ASAP is a good thing.

I have to say that if we had a logline and a better idea of what the script's plot and story is, then we'd be better equipped to decide if we thought whether it would be gratuitous or not.

 

[Capt Quirk]

David, when I disagreed with your statement, it was that "Sex only conveys sex, nothing else" . It can convey many things, depending on how you approach the scene, and how you display it to the viewers. And as far as women being turned off by sex scenes, again, it depends on how you approach it and display it. If you have lots of full frontal, they will not be as interested as a man might. But done tastefully, romantically, they will enjoy it. My wife and I have different views on sex in a movie. But if the scene has Adrian Paul's naked Ass, she's happy. Now, if it was say, Gilbert Godfried instead of Adrian Paul, she wouldn't be interested at all.

 

[Sad Max]

This is why I say things like "likely" and "can easily be". Of course there are women who would accept a sex scene in much the same way many (not all) men would. But as a GROUP, characteristically, 30s-40s women TEND to not be AS enamored of sex scenes and nudity as their male counterparts.

I have not stated a 'general view of women'. And your comment borders on being personally insulting.

I think you invest way too much in being personally insulted and affronted. If you have been misunderstood, then clarify your point.

There isn't another person posting here, who spends as much time informing the rest of us that he/she is offended/insulted/etc by others' comments (at least, on the threads I've had the pleasure, to read).

Repeated notifications as to your degree of insult or upset are not constructive or useful input, at least, not to me.

If I've gone and forgotten the threads wherein I spend time complaining about personal affronts, please feel free to remind me, where it's happened.

 

[Nektonic]

Now, if it was say, Gilbert Godfried instead of Adrian Paul, she wouldn't be interested at all.

Would any woman be interested in a Gilbert Godfried sex scene?

I remember a Hitchcock quote I've always like that would apply to making a sex scene different from the norm.

"Film your murders like love scenes, and film your love scenes like murders."

Of course there have been variations on this quote by other filmmakers such as, "shoot your action sequences like sex scenes, and film your sex scenes like action scenes."

Maybe this would not apply directly to this script problem but this discussion reminded me of it.

http://www.movietome.com/people/38751/alfred-hitchcock/trivia.html

A bunch of other Hitchcock quotes at the link above if anyone is interested. Some are pretty funny. Apparently Hitch is terrified of eggs.

 

[wcmartell]

If it's required to tell the story, the next question is - does it engage the reader/viewer? Does it involve us in the characters so that we want to watch the rest of the film?

The BASIC INSTINCT scene was the crime that the cops investigate - more than a sex scene. And it sets up clues that seem to lead to Sharon Stone's character, etc.

I think it's an interesting way to open a script... how did DANGEROUS LIASONS open? Haven't seen it in ages, but my fuzzy memory has a bedroom conversation early in the film.

- Bill

 

[Randall_Oelerich]

For sure, I would want to carefully script the scene so it was germane to the story and done in a fashion that works for the genre and the characters in the story.

If it's required to tell the story, the next question is - does it engage the reader/viewer? Does it involve us in the characters so that we want to watch the rest of the film?

The BASIC INSTINCT scene was the crime that the cops investigate - more than a sex scene. And it sets up clues that seem to lead to Sharon Stone's character, etc.

I think it's an interesting way to open a script... how did DANGEROUS LIASONS open? Haven't seen it in ages, but my fuzzy memory has a bedroom conversation early in the film.

- Bill